The Tiger – An endangered species…

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[hans]

mother of god! this is amazing, dailydose! 

well explained and valid points, sounds round and correct for me and totally makes sense. What is the balance team thinking about these ideas?

PS: test? 

[dailydose]

Who's Dailydose? Where did he come from? He's amazing (though needs to work on less wall of text - also no as amazing as Hicks,and of course ME!)

Just a total newb to EiRR and CoH--I bought CoH over the Steam sale last weekend just to play EiRR, so I guess I have the distinction of having my my total # of CoH games = total # EiRR games. Nice to meet you.

However, how will this -20% pen effect handheld AT? Infantry like to get close to Tigers for safety (smaller splash radius), which made the Tiger back off; It may now not back off as it is penalized less, so may just go run over the infantry (not a problem with the slower KT).  

I think it will be a matter of timing which, from my limited observation, most successful handheld AT attacks seem to boil down to anyway: attack when the P4's turret is turned away, or the StuG has turned, etc....

The Tiger is relatively fast compared to the KT so it could feasibly crush, but it still has really poor acceleration and turns which will still make it vulnerable to handheld AT. Since the Tiger must halt to fire its gun effectively, the handheld AT just has to rush the Tiger while it is stopped or going very slow, blast it with the bazooka/PIAT, and then turn tail. The Tiger's poor acceleration will mean that by the time the Tiger could feasibly get to top-speed and attempt a crush, the infantry has put significant distance between it and the Tiger, making the crush attempt a moot exercise.

In addition, in a scenario where handheld AT is close enough to fight a Tiger, the Tiger probably has bigger fish to fry than the AT team, meaning the main gun isn't pointed at the bazooka team and the tank is of little threat as the chassis is pointing elsewhere. The presence of distractions seems to be a prerequisite for successful attacks on most turreted tanks--the AT team seems to get pasted if they attempt the attack alone, from what I've seen so far.

Finally, as a Tiger player, I avoid American inf/rangers like the plague because of stickies. Due to the Tiger's slow speed, a damaged engine is basically a death sentence. For the British, they can hide behind object cover like a house and lob PIATs over it with ground attack, while remaining 100% safe from the Tiger's attack.

In summation, Allied should not be worried about the crush since the Tiger will probably be too busy to attack handheld AT in most cases; it will avoid Americans in fear of stickies; and the Brits can literally avoid the Tiger's attack by smartly stationing their PIAT behind houses and lobbing shells over. All these factors combined should mean that the dynamics of handheld AT attacks against Tigers will not be much affected by the pen reduction.

[Hicks58]

Handheld AT penetration would just be Tiger penetration -20%.

Most handheld is pretty crap for penetration against Tiger armour anyhow with the exception of RR's. It's rear hits where the damage is done.

Oh, and it's worth noting that while zook penetration is junk vs Tigers, they do have a damage modifier of 1.6.

That's about 140 damage or so off the top of my head per zook - The key is just penetrating.

[nikomas]

I don't have the figures for their penetration vs Tigers so that doesn't help. Sorry

Numbers read...

General Handheld vs. Tiger front = Nope.jpg

Okay, Actual numbers are 18% chance and 112,5 damage. (75 times 1.5, not 1.6 on tigers) Bit less than 140, were you thinking of TR zooks hicks?
Lol, actually zooks got a +35% accuracy modifier against tigers, didn't know about that... that's kind of funny, add that with the TR buffs and no wonder TR zooks never miss tigers.

Anyway, proposed change would really only shoot down Zook pen from 18% > 13/14%, not a big change in the grand scheme of things, it's probably not something you'd notice in the game without knowing it in advance anyway.

[Mysthalin]

Niko

Zooks have 93.75 damage/shot base.

Same way shreks have 150 damage/shot base.

RGD mind-rape - figure it out if you can.

[dailydose]

Looking at Corsix, it says...

Bazooka:
------
Against Tiger Front (Old): 0.1853
Against Tiger Rear (Old): 1.1118

Against Tiger Front (Proposed): 0.1482 (=.1853*.8 )
Against Tiger Rear (Proposed): 0.8894

Bazooka dmg = 140.625

========

PIAT - Short Range (Base 2):
----
Against Tiger Front (Old): 0.3706
Against Tiger Rear (New): 2.2236

Against Tiger Front (Old): 0.2965
Against Tiger Rear (New): 1.779


PIAT - Long Range (Base 1)
--------
Against Tiger Front (Old): 0.1853
Against Tiger Rear (Old): 1.1118

Against Tiger Front (Proposed): 0.1482
Against Tiger Rear (Proposed): 0.8894

PIAT Dmg = 135 (90*1.5)

====

So the handhelds don't change much. Both infantry handheld AT had piss-poor chance of getting through the front before, and they still do now. The rear shots, however, is above 1 for the proposed Tiger pen. values, which means that the rear shots will always go through as before.

The Numbers look pretty good to me.

Edit: So that means with the proposed changes, there is a small chance (~10%) that a Bazooka, or a PIAT at long range, will deflect from the Tiger's rear armor. Although that said, since the Bazooka has +30% accuracy against Tigers, having below 1 rear pen. might not be too game-breaking.

[Mysthalin]

Rear isn't the chance to penetrate rear, it's a multiplier on top of the front armour.

So bazooka vs Tiger Rear currently is 1.1118, not 6.

[dailydose]

Rear isn't the chance to penetrate rear, it's a multiplier on top of the front armour.

So bazooka vs Tiger Rear currently is 1.1118, not 6.

Oh, I see.   I'll redo the math in a jiff.

Math is redone.

[nikomas]

Niko

Zooks have 93.75 damage/shot base.

Same way shreks have 150 damage/shot base.

RGD mind-rape - figure it out if you can.

Huh, a bit to tired to look that up on my own right now, you might as well just tell me. I have to effing say it's annoying how inconsitent corsix can be sometimes...
So the damage is boosted by 25% for some reason then?

[dailydose]

If I did the math right, 93.75*1.5=140.625 dmg against the Tiger.

What in the world is a RGD? 

[nikomas]

Niko - figure it out if you can.

Wait wait wait a second, please don't tell me it's related to splash? That would be dumb, so dumb... but the numbers would make sense... oh god, tell me it's not? 1.25 short range splash with a range of zero, 100% to penetrate... is that really it? 75 + 25%, it adds up, but really?

RGD mindfuck indeed if that's the case, it's the only thing I can see in my very tired state that adds up... And it sounds so stupid I know I must be wrong about it, haha

[Mysthalin]

Yup, me and gamesguy had a hell of a time figuring out the exact reason why 4 stormshrek shots are enough to kill shermans back in the day. It's the only thing that explains it, really.

[nikomas]

Yup, me and gamesguy had a hell of a time figuring out the exact reason why 4 stormshrek shots are enough to kill shermans back in the day. It's the only thing that explains it, really.

Sooo... I do good finding it in 20 minutes, can has cookie?

It's still pretty stupid, why not simply change the damage to 93.5 to begin with and be done with it, as far as I know putting a damage buff on a 0m splash makes no sense at all...

[Mysthalin]

Why do pumas have a 0.15 long range penetration modifier? Why did stukas have a 0.5 penetration modifier vs infantry?

The answer to that is simple - Relic is fucking retarded.

[Tymathee]

Why do pumas have a 0.15 long range penetration modifier? Why did stukas have a 0.5 penetration modifier vs infantry?

The answer to that is simple - Relic is fucking retarded.

balance? :shrug:

[Mysthalin]

All fear the otherwise epic long-range tank killing abilities of the 20mm puma!

[tank130]

What in the world is a RGD? 

RGD's are all the information you just looked up using corsix

[dailydose]

How about Panzer Shreks and Recoiless Riffles?

Panzerschreck:
------
Against Tiger Front (Old): 0.4586
Against Tiger Rear (Old): .9080

Against Tiger Front (Proposed): .36688
Against Tiger Rear (Proposed): 0.7264

Panzerschreck dmg = 150

========

Boys AT Rifle Short
----
Against Tiger Front (Old): 0.1019
Against Tiger Rear (old): .4077

Against Tiger Front (New): 0.0815
Against Tiger Rear (New): 0.326


Boys AT Rifle Mid
----
Against Tiger Front (Old): 0.0926
Against Tiger Rear (old): .3705

Against Tiger Front (new): 0.0741
Against Tiger Rear (New): .2964

Boys AT Rifle long
----
Against Tiger Front (new): 0.0786
Against Tiger Rear (New): .3150

Against Tiger Front (new): 0.0630
Against Tiger Rear (New): 0.2520

Boys Dmg = 45 (60*.75)

====
So Boys ATR is basically useless, while the Panzerschreck performs somewhat worse than the Bazooka.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

yea, the Boys AT is only good against units like the Anything the PE has that's not armored and when you get it for the PE its pretty much just useless.

Also you sure you aren't Myst?

[dailydose]

yea, the Boys AT is only good against units like the Anything the PE has that's not armored and when you get it for the PE its pretty much just useless.

Also you sure you aren't Myst?

Pretty sure I live on the West side of the Atlantic.