Why is ATG sniping still a problem?

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[RikiRude]

Seriously, I've been away from EIRR for like 8 months and ATG sniping is still a problem, and now it's even worse because axis have so many mobile AT platforms. The way I see it is the problem is broken down this simple. Also I speak from a US POV I don't know how brit 57s fit in.

I'm going to lay down some statements correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I see.

Both the 57 and the pak have the same accuracy against each other correct?

Now if both guns have the same accuracy, and lets say they did the same damage and had the same rate of fire, in theory the pak would win a majority of the time because it essentially comes down to whoever gets the first shot off, and with cloaked guns, that puts axis at a distinct advantage, especially defensive with moving paks.

But that isn't the case, now I do believe the 57 does more damage, but the pak has a faster rof, and in these battles faster rof beats out overall damage. Now one could argue that 57s have AP rounds, but even then with a faster rof pak is likely to win. Either way I think we can all agree it takes about 3 hits from either gun to take the other down. AP rounds included (I could be wrong though)

I think it's incredibly simple to balance this problem, and the devs seem to have never picked up on this. All they have done is decrease BOTH weapons accuracy against each other. This helps, but it doesn't make as much sense as this.

if the pak gets off 20% more rounds that the 57 does. then it isn't right to decrease both their accuracy the same against each other. what should happen is the pak should have less accuracy against the 57. not a significant number, but if they both had 100% accuracy vs each other, then the pak should be lowered to 85% in theory.

hopefully this makes sense, and this wasn't after a losing vs wher, i actually just got done playing against all PE twice. i mean the numbers make sense to me, or am I just crazy?

[lionel23]

ATGs with US I never really bother with, again why I'm a fan of MOBILE AT weapons as the ATG is too expensive to field for my playstyle.  It's too vulnerable to heavy tanks (Tiger can gib the crew or gun very quickly since its a vehicle), its vulnerable to shreks and likewise the axis one is vulnerable to zooks and RRs.

What I do with both my axis and allies account is I let the enemy bring ATGs out and have him get penalized.  An ATG is 5 POP (an entire infantry squad!).  So if two players bring out two ATG with escorts, that's 10 POP wasted on not being able to counter infantry (and I run heavy anti-inf builds to chew thru numbers quickly).  So my games I usually don't see a lot on my side and see the other bringing out more ATG... so ATG sniping is a minor issue there, being it is vulnerable to so many sources that you either coddle and protect them or use alternate AT which is a bit more reliable and sturdier.

I overrun his position and use his own guns against them.  If you check the replay forum, I have some vids on Abby with Wind's vet 3 Jadg dying and he knew exactly what I was doing.  Moment he lost an ATG, he would have his pumas and hezters open fire to destroy it before I could capture it and turn it against him.  And the nice advantage of taking someone else's ATG is that you get it for 4 POP as opposed to bringing out 5 POP, as well as not having to waste all your munitions on that.

Again my playstyle, I personally think ATG sniping is fine since its super low as is, and sometimes you just need a way to take out an ATG at long range (those pesky ATGs are covered by MGs or hordes of tanks, and you have no arty... what do you do then?). Below are my win ratios of my 3 major companies that do not run ATGs at all or only run 1.

US Rangers: 45w/29l/8d
Brit Commandos: 23w/12l/4d
Wehr Blitz: 29w/10l/1d

So far I'm doing pretty good without being forced to run any support weapons or ATGs (other than the mandatory 105mm in US infantry).  I think it's just a 'bad roll' you may be experiencing... like in my vid where my no-AT start wipes the floor with a hezter and its escorts, all based on a lucky shrek drop... sometimes you get good games, sometimes you get bad ones, ya know?

[Tymathee]

no i'm with riki, i play a lot of games where paks win the atg sniping game a lot. and i dont thik its the rof because i got hit 3 times ina row once kinda improbable but not impossible.

also, the issue I feel is i've never really learned how not to play with at guns as allies, i can do with it as brits, pe and wehr but not the amis, they kinda need it imo, their tanks are just not good enough. Now if you can get a persh or tank reapers you can do fine or if ur an expert at microing the tank destroyers, otherwise eveyone else uses atg's lionel, cuz not everybody knows how to use their m10's as lawn mowers

[8thRifleRegiment]

you know.. i was gunna say, the americas are at an advantage becuase thier 57 can two shot paks with ap rounds..... soo. pak cant do shit. i understand your argument of axis having alot of at platforms... but all thier at platforms are super easy to counter, 50mls get 2 shotted by atgs and can be killed by small arms fire, marders are the most useless peices of shit in the game, they miss shots, pathfiinding is awfull, terrible turn speed, and pak 40 has terribler accuracy vs moving objects

[Mysthalin]

57mm can kill pak in 2 shots.
Pak can kill 57 in 3.

They both require pretty much the same amount of time to kill each other.
Therefore them both having the same accuracy vs each other is justified.

Next case.

[RikiRude]

57mm can kill pak in 2 shots.
Pak can kill 57 in 3.

They both require pretty much the same amount of time to kill each other.
Therefore them both having the same accuracy vs each other is justified.

Next case.

that's an unfair statement since a pak will almost always get the first shot and that's only if the 57 is using AP rounds. Next case I think not. Cloak is not on a reload timer like AP rounds.

[RikiRude]

I will have to give things a whirl with what lionel suggested, but.. I'm also an armor player, so I don't really run too much infantry so it'll be hard.

You know I used to have this amazing Raid AB company forever ago (back when we still had repair bunkers for axis) that did the same thing. It was made up of M-10s + Crocs, and all AB, every squad had either a nade, RRs, and a few had satch charges. I would drop my troops behind enemy lines rape all their support squads and infantry, and then steal them all, so I had AB troops with MG42s, axis mortars, paks, and if I was lucky a couple shrecks and lmgs. It was totally devastating. Whenever AB comes back I plan on trying to make a very similar company.

[Killer344]

that's an unfair statement since a pak will almost always get the first shot and that's only if the 57 is using AP rounds. Next case I think not. Cloak is not on a reload timer like AP rounds.

With or without AP rounds the 57 will destroy the pak in 2 shots.

[Mysthalin]

that's an unfair statement since a pak will almost always get the first shot and that's only if the 57 is using AP rounds. Next case I think not. Cloak is not on a reload timer like AP rounds.

AP rounds is irrelevant : with or without it - you kill the pak in 2 shots. The pak may get the first shot due to being cloaked - but that undeniably means it's on the defence(as it can't move while cloaked, unless with a certain defensive ability) - and should have an advantage due to that reason from the get go.

next case please.

[Demon767]

You are theory crafting who gets the first shot off

im with myst. next case.

[RikiRude]

That sounds totally off, but I'm going to watch some replays when I get a chance and come back to this because I swear paks stick around with a sliver of health after two 57 shots.

[Killer344]

dude, 57s deal 150 damage per shot, the pak's gun has 300hp.... do the math?

[DarkSoldierX]

It is possible it missed the kill crit, we all know this happens.

[Hicks58]

Possible? I've had an ATG not roll a kill crit 3 times in a row. One of the more annoying moments for me in EiRR - the pak countersniped my ATG as a result.

However, 2 shots is enough crit permitting.

[panzerman]

both sides do it...although i doo see 57 and 6pdr sniping inf alot more lol...

shreks and zooks aslo have a high amout of damage vs atg and pak i really hate having rangers rush my atg and get zooked to death...same with stormies ninja suprising my atgs lol.

[puddin]

just tested 5 57s in different senarios vs linal... i lost 1 7 he lost 5 paks... Clear winner is the 57, it hit more, the ROF does not make up for the 2 shot kills.  I thoguht it was the otherw way around... 


Esscially, the rate of fire would have to be as such to make up for the needing 1 more shot... and it does not.

[Demon767]

+1 Puddin

but it's essentialy who gets the first shot off, and you can play with so many theorys on how one trumps the other. we cant prove one buff over the other. we must do to one as we do to the other.

[Spartan_Marine88]

just tested 5 57s in different senarios vs linal... i lost 1 7 he lost 5 paks... Clear winner is the 57, it hit more, the ROF does not make up for the 2 shot kills.  I thoguht it was the otherw way around... 


Esscially, the rate of fire would have to be as such to make up for the needing 1 more shot... and it does not.

I believe you, tbh i loved killing paks with 57's.Pak 40's even more due to the attrition cost . But can you just post a reply to end the discussion

[puddin]

if my word ain;t enough to bad   didn;t make one and the senario was

Pak first shot uncloaked... 57 win...

Pak in cloack 1 st shot... 57 win...

3 paks in cloack vs 3 57s... 
1st volly 57s killed a pack and packs killed no 57s, 3rd volly 57s killed 2nd pak, 5th volly 57s killed last pack, all 3 57s lived. 

Last one was just a snowball effect. 

As far as at gun sniping one another, its a part of the game, annoying but now that at guns are 5 pop.. i;d say just make dmg modifiers for ththose weapon types, so they can still hit in a pinch, but they won;t do so much dmg, Make them do liek 10% dmg when they hit no more...

[Tymathee]

but paks are usually going to get the first shot off though.