Cheap PGrens get RifleArmour instead of RangerArmour

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[doesnttalkmuch]

Hi EIR:R team,

I really had fun playing that game.
But from the first moment on I noticed something. There were more exp and successfull players on axis side.  
So I tried to figure it out. What was the cause for that.

Several points I have noticed since then...

First:
Ingame I noticed that half of all axis players AT is based on "Schrecks" (Pgrens with Ranger-armour).
-most allies Infantry can not fast-kill them... not even with sub- and big machine gun so they save their vet very easy-
*see in att.replay

Second: The main strategy of EVERY axis player is to kill enemy ATG and tanks with Schrecks.
-allies tanks can not face "Schreck" Blobs... not even with front armor faced to Schreck soldier
*see in att.replay

Third: They withstand most threats -allies can not fast-kill "Schreck" blobs with off-map arty or with on-map arty << which is (as seen in the replay... totaly useless, due to cooldown and bad splash)
*see in att.replay

Fourth: Axis win most games because allies are out of AT ... as soon as the atgs are dead axis players are pushing with good front armour tanks

Fifth: Ingame there is a fight of 4 machine gun rangers vs unvettet grens without cover. They fast shoting their G43 (which looks total unrealistic and dumb)   and they win against machine guns (!!!) and a 3 man rifle squad.
-grens are a standard unit, they do not deserve Ranger-armour. This only suits the more expensive Stormtroopers.
*see in replay

Sixth: You really think allies players will have fun losing all the time because of the same things that happen every game.  
I/You wonder about the fact that there are so many axis players with high exp and much less allies players.

In the last shoutcast you selected were much less "Schrecks" ingame than normal... and that is how the game should be balanced. But if the shoucast game would be like most games the allies are simply running out of AT. There are axis companies out there with 32 "ranger" sqauds and two tigers in it (!!!)  

I simply would like to know how our VIP axis players would behave and balance their companies, when they had grens with Rifle-armour

4vs4 attached, the allies players were doing good, they only lose due to Schrecks and PGren-Ranger-Armour

Thank you in advance for all your fine work

-------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20518204/Invincible+Pgrens.zip

[Demon767]

Allies are easier to play and always have been easier to play in EIRR

[8thRifleRegiment]

Allies are easier to play and always have been easier to play in EIRR

+1

[Demon767]

Is leo going to get a warning from posting a photo in balance thread? :O

[doesnttalkmuch]

Before our axis players shot anger at me... have a look at the replay.
Count the Schreck kills...
Count the countless "finish him"
Count the kills of the "Schreckers"

There are about 10 "Schreck" squads ingame (replay)
8 squads withdraw under heavy fire without being killed.
A 4vs4 and we only kill 2 Schrecker Squads (!!!)
They "finish off" but it is not possible to "finish them off"
Axis player has lots of time to push the retreat button. They do not die like flies, like rifles

Allies tanks are helpless ... they are Schreck-food
Allies are no challenge that way... they are only cannonfodder
I wonder how this can be still entertaining for axis players, because we are no real challenge that way.
And dont tell me the sherman Jumbo can withstand Schreckers... of course it can, because it is a cheap copy of Panther-armour. So in the end only axis tank armour withstands Schreckers.
Is there an allies player out there who is brave and perfect enough in using an M10 to crush Schreckers?

NO!

Would like to have you thinking about my "blabla" here

[doesnttalkmuch]

It is not so hard to follow advise...

I said look at replay first, then reply...

thank you in advance
and take care


For lazy guys... oh look here the link again...funny, eh?
-------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.gamefront.com/files/20518204/Invincible+Pgrens.zip

[RikiRude]

i know where he is coming from, i dont think allies or axis are easier to play, its not that simple, its more about which faction is easiest to play since all 4 play different.

also there is such a large group of axis players that are good, new players play allies, get stomped, join axis, start winning as axis because they are playing with good players, then never switch to allies, thus staying on the axis side and becoming good themselves.

also axis have way more variety. us has rifles, shermans, LVs, support weapons, and atgs. wm has volks, grens, kch, nebels, stugs, P4s, panthers, ostwinds, support weapons. i mean right there, axis have the choice between 3 types of infantry units. they have a variety of tanks for different roles that look unique.

but what i find funny, is axis seem to have much more variety, though in reality they only have about 5 more units than US.

but just imagine if for WM you had to unlock KCH and grens, nebels, and ostwinds.

[Mister Schmidt]

Dude, Panzergrens do not have the same armour as Rangers.

[Demon767]

First:
Ingame I noticed that half of all axis players AT is based on "Schrecks" (Pgrens with Ranger-armour).
-most allies Infantry can not fast-kill them... not even with sub- and big machine gun so they save their vet very easy-
*see in att.replay

I dont believe Pzgrens have Elite armour...

Second: The main strategy of EVERY axis player is to kill enemy ATG and tanks with Schrecks.
-allies tanks can not face "Schreck" Blobs... not even with front armor faced to Schreck soldier
*see in att.replay

Certainly not the main strategy and it's certainly not the most effective, if you're talking about Tankbuster squads, or even Gren squads, you can use some elite infantry to deal with it, suppressing weaponry or some good ol kiting with shermans and cromwell, or all that together.
This strategy that you name, is shrek blobing, running over ATGs and tanks is obscenely fail against competent players. It is certainly over kill and pathetic if you have any sense of counters. the counters are numerous, so this shouldnt even be a problem.

Third: They withstand most threats -allies can not fast-kill "Schreck" blobs with off-map arty or with on-map arty << which is (as seen in the replay... totaly useless, due to cooldown and bad splash)
*see in att.replay

certainly another false statement as i highlight in the above quote.

Fourth: Axis win most games because allies are out of AT ... as soon as the atgs are dead axis players are pushing with good front armour tanks

A tactic that is used by BOTH sides, it is to out attrition the other side of ATGs, Paks, before the other side does it to you, so you just roll over them with armour and infantry. This quote presents nothing new.

Fifth: Ingame there is a fight of 4 machine gun rangers vs unvettet grens without cover. They fast shoting their G43 (which looks total unrealistic and dumb)   and they win against machine guns (!!!) and a 3 man rifle squad.
-grens are a standard unit, they do not deserve Ranger-armour. This only suits the more expensive Stormtroopers.
*see in replay

as someone said earlier, the rangers were not using the SMGs to full effectiveness and, which means not in close range. Of course pzgrens will beat any SMG infantry if they have G43/Kar's. Same as sten commandos will not beat pzgrens in the same situation.

Sixth: You really think allies players will have fun losing all the time because of the same things that happen every game.  
I/You wonder about the fact that there are so many axis players with high exp and much less allies players.

dunno what to say about this.


So yer, Pzgrens have Infantry armour right?
yer this thread is bleeding full of Allies Bias. There is no point in continuing if he argues my points, because i know they are 100% correct.

[doesnttalkmuch]

4 man Pgren beat 6 man Rifles

they can stay in submachinegun forever before dying so what kind of armour is it then?
It is NOT "I die instantly Rifle armour" that is for sure

The Rangers with SMG were standing right before the Pgrens with G43 so having full close combat effectiness.

Ok maybe it is too much to ask you to have a look at the replay. Ingame Elite Infantry was not able to deal with them. Kiting with Schrecks ... yeah... the good thing is that there are no similar fast and sneaky units on allies side* where the axis player needs to kite. So only we have to play with fire. I will do that when they die from time to time.


*Sappers are too slow and cannot run or cloak

[Mister Schmidt]

4 men pgrens beat 6 men rifles because pgrens cost more so therefore should beat them.

[doesnttalkmuch]

As I asked before... what  kind of armor do they have then?

The "I cost more, so I live longer" armour?

Can I play vCOH and I face the same Pgrens as in the mod?

[EliteGren]

As I asked before... what  kind of armor do they have then?

Same as riflemen which is infantry armor, they just have more HP.

[doesnttalkmuch]

yeah...

[Unkn0wn]

It seems like a number of you have completely forgotten about this forum's code of conduct.
This is your one and only warning, next time I will be handing out suspensions.

I don't care what your opinion is about this thread, if you don't have anything even remotely polite or constructive to say don't fucking post at all. Everyone is entitled to make threads in this forum, no one's asking you to agree with the OP.

[doesnttalkmuch]

So I suppose now that every man in a PGren sqaud got 80 HP...
I don't see any unit stat list so far so I only can guess that every man in a Rilfeman squad got only 40 HP

I remember a game together with Mysthalin in which his commandos killed all the axis schreckers causing the axis players to whine a lot.

So I suppose again that Commandos do more damage with SMGs in close range than Rangers in close range.

Als long as players like me get no real stat list to look at from time to time... this abusing-fail-thread-making will continue and therefore happen from time to time. Due to the fact, that I am only a month or two into this I must admit that my opinion is kind of weak. Therefor I thought of attaching the replay. But I think for now I had enough feedback.

Meaning: Thx for your response so far

[Demon767]

The combined totals of HP between Pzgrens and Rifleman is marginal, only exception is that Pzgrens will lose out more firepower due to there lower amount of mens compared to Rifles as the HP is spread out among 6 members

but all this talk about HP and Myst will be a bad cookie

Pzgrens were brought inline with other main battle infantry, so they now become 4 man WM grens, same MP, just not as strong firepower wise, unless the free g43 changed that, but the difference is marginal.

Also, bars are extremely effective against Pzgrens due to the new armour change.

[Mysthalin]

Riflemen get 55 HP/man.

Yes, Commandos get 6 Stens as opposed to the 4 thompsons Rangers get, and they do end up dealing more damage than the thompsons do(though rangers are more survivable than commandos, which offsets it a bit).

Everyone has access to the stats - as long as they're willing to learn to use very basic Corsix(it is not at all hard to do, and will not take more than half an hour to learn). If you're not willing to, then you can blame but yourself for being lazy.

[Hicks58]

Straight from the RGD's (Those are the statistics behind the game):

Riflemen have Infantry armour, and 55 HP per man, with a 6 man squad at 200 Manpower.

PzGrens have Infantry armour, and 80 HP per man, with a 4 man squad at 215 Manpower.

PzGrens are easy enough to kill, try using BAR's on them. They are much cheaper than Thompsons and cost much less of your pool being on Rifles.

Also, Thompsons do excellent damage at close range, and bare in mind, close range is defined as being within 8 CoH units of distance. This means you have to be LESS than a quarter of the Ranger's sight range away from your target to be 'classed' as being in close range. Anything further than that is medium range and results in a large accuracy drop off.

If you were at medium range (And I'll look at that replay tomorrow and tell you if you were, not looking tonight, about to go to bed) then G43's will beat your Thompsons if you stay at medium range.

By the way, there is a 'Real stat list' that everybody can look at, you just need a set of tools to look at them. Takes about half a minute to download, but I've forgotten where said tools are on the forum. I'm sure somebody else will kindly show you.

Hope that's helped.

[AmPM]

So I suppose now that every man in a PGren sqaud got 80 HP...
I don't see any unit stat list so far so I only can guess that every man in a Rilfeman squad got only 40 HP

I remember a game together with Mysthalin in which his commandos killed all the axis schreckers causing the axis players to whine a lot.

So I suppose again that Commandos do more damage with SMGs in close range than Rangers in close range.

Als long as players like me get no real stat list to look at from time to time... this abusing-fail-thread-making will continue and therefore happen from time to time. Due to the fact, that I am only a month or two into this I must admit that my opinion is kind of weak. Therefor I thought of attaching the replay. But I think for now I had enough feedback.

Meaning: Thx for your response so far

For stats, easy, either ASK for them, or learn to use the RGDs to look it up (About 10min work at most).

So you know, Rifles squads destroy Axis infantry. The only issue currently is the Axis Defensive Officer buffing everything by too much. That is getting nerfed in the next update.