HVAP Rounds on a 75mm Sherman

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[InecatInDunare]

As long as hitting a tank on his side is better then engaging it from the front, there is side armor . But that was not the point. Anyway thank's for the statistics. So you say that with Call It In the Sherman won't hit a lot more often infantry? Also my idea was that with HVAP Rounds and Call it In I would be able to get a decent AT and a pretty good anti-infantry with my Sherman's. And in this case, and in this case only, 24 pop on the field on two Sherman's doesn't sound that bad.

[Ahnungsloser]

And what are just the ambush bonuses? I know that the Armor piercing at the 57mm ATG give 5x penetration and +25% damage. What
gets the M18 Hellcat with its first out of ambush shot?

[Hicks58]

As long as hitting a tank on his side is better then engaging it from the front, there is side armor . But that was not the point. Anyway thank's for the statistics. So you say that with Call It In the Sherman won't hit a lot more often infantry? Also my idea was that with HVAP Rounds and Call it In I would be able to get a decent AT and a pretty good anti-infantry with my Sherman's. And in this case, and in this case only, 24 pop on the field on two Sherman's doesn't sound that bad.

It will hit more often, but a 76mm Sherman with a .50cal does pretty good AI anyhow. The buff isn't proportional to the amount of points it's soaking up in your doctrine tbh.

My tip to you would be to only field a pair of Shermans in either dire circumstances or when you have at least 34 pop.

[LeoPhone]

hellcat ambush: x1.5 pen, x1.5 dmg

[Hicks58]

Standard damage against a Tiger is 1.25. HVAP makes it 1.35.

Ambush is a further 1.5 so thats 112.5 x 1.35 x 1.5 which makes for 227.81 damage. That's a pretty nasty amount of damage if it goes through, and the Hellcat has the same damage modifiers against the Panther and the PIV as well as the Ostwind and JagdPanther.

However, here's the chance to penetrate the Tiger in question from the front with a HVAP Hellcat using Ambush:

Long: 69.13%
Medium: 75.71%
Short: 82.29%

Long range is a bit sketchy, but if you wait until medium range the odds are solid for a penetrating hit. Short range is very good, but impractical. If you pull it off you've took out just over a fifth of the Tiger's health in one shot though.

[Ahnungsloser]

I saw a game there had 2 ambushed m18 hellcats take maybe -40% of his hp down. With another ATG support the Jagdpanther had
retreat instantly, i think this take a lot of amazement to the tank crew.

Yeah, there i is no better than us... *WTF* - Retreat! 

[InecatInDunare]

Thank you. This is pretty much what I wanted to know. And of course I never though about fielding two Sherman's from the start. But I was hopping more of a shock combo in the late game. I'm very convinced to give Call It In a chance, because elite armor doesn't protect against armor dmg. It only protects against small arms dmg.

[RikiRude]

dont get calling it in for shermans, if you want to make the most of this ability combine it with m8s i would say, or a pair of T17s would probably be incredibly deadly. you want high rate of fire with this ability.

or use it with jeeps to take out snipers quickly, or combine with jeeps and mark target.

but for a T3 unlock i found it incredibly lackluster... not as bad as WP Strike, but still wasn't impressed.

I have hvap and run m18s, 2x m10s, and 2x m8s and its served me incredibly well so far. I only have 2x atgs in the company and havent had any problems dealing with armor.

[InecatInDunare]

I will remember you advise then. I will put a couple of m8's in my company. But if the M8 is much more effective with Call It In, it doesn't mean that it won't help the Sherman's too. You mean the T17 is more effective against infantry then the M8?

[Hicks58]

T17 is very effective against Infantry, but isn't as multi-purpose as the M8. The M8 can drop LV's and engage HV's from the rear armour. The T17 cannot.

If you need a high value infantry target dead quickly, pop Calling it in. Just remember it isn't a miracle button, it won't make you instantly mop the squad your facing, regardless of unit under the influence of Calling it in but it will help.

[InecatInDunare]

But you can activate Call It In on more then one vehicle at one time right?

[Hicks58]

It's company wide and lasts either 30 or 60 seconds. Pretty sure it's 60, I'll have to check at some point.

It activates like turning on Blitzkrieg, all on map units are effected for the duration.

[RikiRude]

think about it like this.

m8 with in 30 seconds will fire what... 5-7 shots? a t17 will fire double that at least. faster rof means taking far more advantage of better accuracy. Also quad would probably take pretty good advantage of it.

the problem is comparing it to something like blitzkrieg, blitzkrieg is so much more useful, because its so many more bonuses with an accuracy negative.

[Ahnungsloser]

Another question:
How good is the buff from the HVAP rounds for the M8?
Is the Greyhound now able to penetrate a rear armor of a p4 or how good is a chance for a sucessful circle strage against a stug? Or  a battle
Greyhound with HVAP against a Puma with Upgun?

[Hicks58]

An M8 will reliably penetrate the arse of a StuG or a PIV without HVAP.

HVAP will let you do standard medium range penetration at HVAP long range, while allowing you to do standard short range penetration at HVAP medium range. HVAP close range makes for 25% more penetration against targets.

PIV has a 0.4199 (41.99%) chance to be penetrated from the front and a 5.92 rear armour modifier. Even a standard Greyhound gun with 0.66 long range penetration will always penetrate a PIV's arse, doing 1.64 penetration from the back. StuG modifiers are worse at 0.248 frontal penetration and a 5.03 rear armour modifier. Even at long range, that's a 0.82 chance to penetrate. HVAP will change that from 'Will most likely penetrate' to 'Always penetrate'. Frontal chances against the StuG will still be junk with or without HVAP.

Long story short, HVAP or not, flank to win against medium armour or above. HVAP isn't useful for it's penetration, but for it's 10% more damage.

As far as fighting an upgunned Puma goes - Keep moving, stop to shoot, move while you reload. You'll always penetrate a Puma with or without HVAP so it's purely down to player micro.

[Ahnungsloser]

Yeah your right. but this are only some numbers. In the real game i see a lot of bouncing shells. Sometimes there was a situation for example i try a suicide flank with an m8 to kill a marder and then i got unlucky and 3 shells bounces just of the armor off and then i failed to prevent a disaster. I think that the HVAP gives mir more "luck" in very dangerous situations where every shot counts. Maybe you get what i try to explain.

It was just a rhetoric question, i like to know some facts about the game.

[smurfORnot]

As far as fighting an upgunned Puma goes - Keep moving, stop to shoot, move while you reload. You'll always penetrate a Puma with or without HVAP so it's purely down to player micro.

or lead it to mine,m8 mine kills puma instantly.

[RikiRude]

i enjoy the hvap m8s, i agree it adds that extra luck, plus as said the extra damage is nice too.

you can do good work on a p4 as long as you have something heavier hitting it as well. use them in pairs for more success, open with 3 and watch a p4 fall quite quick, they can even do a decent job on a panther, though I wouldnt really recommend it.

ive also been having a lot of fun with m8/m18 combo, both with .50 cals does great work on infantry and with the m18s big sight you can keep your distance, and they are both quite fast and maneuverable.

[Ahnungsloser]

or lead it to mine,m8 mine kills puma instantly.

That's right - but its really hard to trap good players. I like to put down some nasty mines or
try to cover my flanks with it. It seems that the most players magically walk around my mines and
in a other game were we right to lose the game cause we lost al our AT support the unstopable 5% got
destroyed by i mine which i had forget.

ive also been having a lot of fun with m8/m18 combo, both with .50 cals does great work on infantry and with the m18s big sight you can keep your distance, and they are both quite fast and maneuverable.

The most of my games i played with the M18 instead of the M10, but i always fail with the ambush strike so that im
now trying the M10 to compare them each other. With the M10 i had several "Wow!" moments, but it seems that
the M18 are more surviable as the M10s. (I lose them much often as the Hellcat)

I have just one game with the HVAP rounds and i cant really enjoy them. Or i expected to much from them so that
i got disappointed from them. But i give them some time. I can whenever i want select other doctrinal unlocks. (Mobile Warware sounds pretty interesting)

[Hicks58]

Yeah your right. but this are only some numbers. In the real game i see a lot of bouncing shells. Sometimes there was a situation for example i try a suicide flank with an m8 to kill a marder and then i got unlucky and 3 shells bounces just of the armor off and then i failed to prevent a disaster. I think that the HVAP gives mir more "luck" in very dangerous situations where every shot counts. Maybe you get what i try to explain.

It was just a rhetoric question, i like to know some facts about the game.

The only way you can feasibly bounce a Marder is from the front at long range and if you don't have HVAP. You physically cannot bounce at medium and close range.

Missing is a common occurance with M8's, bouncing only happens on medium armour if you go for the front or engage the back at long range.

Anything below medium armour you'll pretty much always penetrate unless your at the front and at max range and it happens to be a bad day.

Also, do not disregard these 'Numbers'. They happen to be the statistics behind the game and what the game uses to calculate whether something happens or not. The only time that these numbers are not conformed two are in one of two cases - When there is a modifier in place somewhere else in the RGD's, or if there is a bug.

Finally, knowing penetration chances for each unit is not essential to EiRR play, but it can give you a noticeable edge. You'll know exactly which units can and cannot do harm to each other and more precisely know when and where to commit to engagements.