[US] Sherman lacking field prescence?

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[Hicks58]

Except to field a number of MG's worth it, you wont have enough support to work with thanks to the 4-6 ATG's you've got.

[Rainbows]

Weee, theorycrafting.

[CrazyWR]

Why would you build a sherman company and then try to have your infantry fight axis infantry when Sherman is meant to fight against axis infantry and infantry is there to support, cap, and recrew and for LoS?

THIS.  If you're trying to use Shermans, you need to know what they are for.  Shermans fight axis infantry, never tanks.  57s and stickies and mines are for fight enemy tanks.  Shermans can do well, but they have to be used properly, not as units that soak up damage or fight tanks, but to deal with blobs via kiting and random infantry. 


Unknown has run many Sherman centric companies very effectively, if you want advice, ask him.

[RikiRude]

It also comes down to how crappy sherman upgades seem to be via doctrine.

operation overlord, why am i going to take a regular sherman when i can have a much more cost effective jumbo? a jumbo with a free .50 cal?

armor, hvap rounds, there's no reason to take hvap on sherman, all it means is you can kill what it already can kill faster. or you can fight a P4 (i think? do you get enough extra penetration and damage ?) with out upgunning. but really, who would you use this bonus on a sherman and not m18, m10, pershing?

armor, USK, this is a good buff to the sherman, less damage and HE rounds a pretty cool. but once again, do you really need HE rounds to fight infantry? you will already do awesome damage against them, plus taking the calli and forgetting about shermans seems like a better idea to most. If you made it so upgun gets HE rounds, then I think people would choose the shermans.

armor, MW. well this is where i think i would see more shermans come from! but i guess i can't really comment since i dont see many people use this. but this is the armor choice you get so you use a variety of armor, 10 pop calli, sherman, and 8 pop crocs and m10/m18s? yes please.

[Spartan_Marine88]

armor, hvap rounds, there's no reason to take hvap on sherman, all it means is you can kill what it already can kill faster.

How is this bad?

This is exactly what you want, it means that you can nudge in, wipe your target out, or do mass damage BEFORE atg's turn to face you.

BTW riki, USK is awesome, once more why would you want upgun with it? Stop trying to use it in magical ways the tank doesn't do. Stick to hunting infantry and light vehicles, and if a p4 comes around support it with an atg, that 15% damage reduction means you wont take much damage from the p4 and do you really care about your shermans damage when you got an atg sitting there?

[smurfORnot]

operation overlord, why am i going to take a regular sherman when i can have a much more cost effective jumbo? a jumbo with a free .50 cal?

why does jumbo become so much better with operation overlord?

[Hicks58]

Don't forget HVAP does nothing for 75mm Shermans.

Also, 76mm Shermans consistently beat PIV's without HVAP, it's just a guarantee by using HVAP. The best result your looking at with HVAP against harder targets is just under 50% chance to penetrate a Tiger... At close range. Long range your looking around low 40% mark. Every other Axis heavy tank has better armour than the Tiger so you can imagine if it doesn't become useful against Tigers with HVAP, then it aint got a hope in hell against other heavy armour pieces.

Tell a lie, two 76mm HVAP Shermans should tear apart a Tiger, but that's 24 pop of Shermans, an equal amount of fuel, more manpower and a nasty amount of munitions if you've got double repairs. Basically not cost effective if you lose one of the Shermans in the process. Oh, and two standard 76mm Shermans will accomplish the same thing should you know how to flank properly with two tanks.

If you want HVAP, use it for tank destroyers or the Pershing.

Doctrinally, Shermans shine when they get USK and vet 1. Makes for about 25/26% less incoming damage, and HE rounds are a nice little number for decrewing paks should you get the round to land behind the crew.

In the current metagame the 76mm upgrade is redundant, the 75mm has the Sherman do everything it needs to do. Should Axis medium armour take the field once more... The 76mm will find it's niche again. Not a problem with the upgun, just what the Axis is currently fielding.

[Ahnungsloser]

I thought the Urban Survival Kit gives reduced received penetration bonuses, not reduced received damage.

[Spartan_Marine88]

I thought the Urban Survival Kit gives reduced received penetration bonuses, not reduced received damage.

-15 recieved pen with USK

-15 damage with vet 1

[Ahnungsloser]

Then is the -25%/-26% Damage from Hicks wrong. *?*

[RikiRude]

why does jumbo become so much better with operation overlord?

-1 sec reload.

and jumbos only 1 pop more, cost only 10 more munitions to repair, but gets a free .50 cal which is +50mu, and it's going to be able to stay on the field a lot longer than a normal sherman, give me one reason why you would take a normal sherman over a jumbo if you were using top T4.

sparten you are totally missing the point of hvap sherman, ok, you can kill P4s and ostwinds and LVs a little bit faster, but you still wont do shit to a panther or tiger. show me a successful hvap company that relies on its shermans or takes advantage of that extra penetration and damage. using shermans in my hvap company was a total waste of resources.

also you make it sound like im down playing USK, the first thing i said was "this is a good buff to the sherman" yeah the fact that you take less damage is fantastic, but unless the enemy is blobbing, the normal 75mm does great against infantry, i found HE rounds more often than not missing targets that a normal round would of hit. though shooting over stuff is really cool.

[Smokaz]

Then jumbo isnt expensive enough, if theres never a choice between sherman and jumbo.

[smurfORnot]

give me one reason why you would take a normal sherman over a jumbo if you were using top T4.

because it's a T3,and someone might wanna T3 arty?

[Spartan_Marine88]

sparten you are totally missing the point of hvap sherman, ok, you can kill P4s and ostwinds and LVs a little bit faster, but you still wont do shit to a panther or tiger. show me a successful hvap company that relies on its shermans or takes advantage of that extra penetration and damage. using shermans in my hvap company was a total waste of resources.

also you make it sound like im down playing USK, the first thing i said was "this is a good buff to the sherman" yeah the fact that you take less damage is fantastic, but unless the enemy is blobbing, the normal 75mm does great against infantry, i found HE rounds more often than not missing targets that a normal round would of hit. though shooting over stuff is really cool.

*sigh* no i didn't miss your point.

Shermans should never EVER become effective counters against panthers and tigers. What Hvap does is makes them even BETTER against what they already do handle. This means being able to tie up combat before they can bring up reinforcements.

And when it comes to USK, its takes a bit more micro to use. While moving use regular rounds, sit and defend switch to HE. Learn when to use HE, if its a single shrek use regular rounds, if its a full squad or a blob switch to HE and your golden. Also with vet one hicks was right you get about 27% damage reduction. And close range with a p4 you will win. (yes this means with a 75) Also as to the effectiveness of an HE sherman, i find them about the same as StuH's.

(and i was wrong its -12% damage not penetration)

[Ahnungsloser]

Ok - Makes Sense! ( 0.85 * 0.85 ) - 1 =  ~ -27%.

[Spartan_Marine88]

I thought it was more 12 + 15 = 27

[Ahnungsloser]

Recalculate:
a) Vet 1 Bonus -15% Received Damage
b) USK Bonus -12% Received Damage (Thought it was -15%)

(0.85 * 0.88) - 1 = ~ -25%

[NightRain]

-1 sec reload.

 give me one reason why you would take a normal sherman over a jumbo if you were using top T4.

 I want to have offmaps, triage, officer and 105s. Which means I have to drop Jumbos in order to get it. Good enough reason? 3 Points. T3 unlock, means you can't have all the goodies.

On top of it as mentioned. They are expensive fuelwise like any other heavy tank.

[tankmaster23]

 Take away some of the AI capabilities from the m-10 TD and you will have a better place for the Sherman not saying that they are bad because when it comes to soft targets and Lv they perform nicely ..
  but when you can get a M-10 you have just has good AI and At and better cost the only lacking thing is armor which you make up for with speed...

[NightRain]

Take away some of the AI capabilities from the m-10 TD and you will have a better place for the Sherman not saying that they are bad because when it comes to soft targets and Lv they perform nicely ..
  but when you can get a M-10 you have just has good AI and At and better cost the only lacking thing is armor which you make up for with speed...

This, has some sense in it, some reason in it too. M10s snipe, crush, and zoom around. But what is the worst is that Hellcats get the 46 LoS and are faster than these and do the same things almost  the same. What should be done about them?

But in reality, nerfing one unit to make another more appealing shouldn't be the way how to balance things in EIRR.