Addressing the viability of medium armour

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[Spartan_Marine88]

well last game a did use my puma to body block two rifle squads from getting to my sniper. So yeah, It does happen but I would agree that the m10 being able to super crush infantry as dumb. Although, I still feel they should have some sort of crush. I think if we can put in some kind of debuff when the infantry is crushed that would stop people from using it as a lawnmower unless it was absolutely necessary. Not sure if that is even possible to code in but would be great to stop all this lawn care that goes on.

Leo already said it is already in there, every time you hit an infantry there is a negligible slow happening, and it wouldn't be hard for him to boost it.

[tank130]

Which leads to the retarded tactic of pushing schreks and RRs around with your light vehicle so they can't shoot =)

Exactly what I do with my Sherman all the time when I can't get a good run at crushing them.

Because the AI for infantry will move out of the way of those vehicles....snip

So if tanks had the same as those light vehicles, then the AI would make those units move out of the way of the tank, making "tank blocks with infantry" not possible?.... Wouldn't it?

[AmPM]

For that, you would need to remove Infantry Crush from the unit.

If you gave it a debuff on crush, I would happily send in Minesweepers as a temporary sticky/treadbreak so I could get off a real sticky/kill it.

Best option, lower accel on M10 to make it harder to crush, refine it's role as the heavy American TD compared to the fast skirmisher AT that is the Hellcat.

[Mysthalin]

Not sure if you've noticed, but tanks such as the M10 are generally about 2-3 times the size of a puma/greyhound in terms of width. It's why blocking an M10/Sherman would be a perfectly viable tactic with infantry if they didn't have crush, whereas it's just too difficult to do against an M8/Puma. But hey, what do I know.

[Mister Schmidt]

What DO you know Mysth?!

[Mysthalin]

Many things that no mortal man should ever have had to suffer the knowledge of.

[UndeathWrath]

First of all I have to agree that crush is a serious problem.

- Like others have said, a TD being able to roll over inf with ease is unbalanced.

- I agree there should be an acceleration penalty after running over an infantryman.

To the people that scream, but you will block my circle strafing with inf!!

- Do you really think you can catch basically the fastest tank in the game with slow ass inf?

- Even if you could CATCH the m10, the AI will make the infantry avoid being hit the hardest it can. There is a super slim chance that you could ever pull off such a tactic.

- Compare that to m10's running over inf which happens all the time and is easy to consistently do and causes the m10 to be effective vs inf which it is not meant to be.

If I want to play a realistic game I'll go play men of war, where my TD's hull mg can wipe out a squad rushing it from the front before they can AT nade it, or where my ATG can kill your stupid TD in one hit. A game where circlestrafing unrealistic tactic is not possible LOL.

For the medium armor problem....

- Honestly just removing this bs tactic from the m10 will lower TD spam substantially, and therefore it will become safer to field p4's and be effective.

- The only other change I would very strongly recommend is to make munitions costs of mediums somewhat proportional to their platform cost.

For example....
Panther costs 600mp 450fu
- Repair Heavy: 60mu
- Side Skirts: 40fu
- MG42: 30mu

P4 costs 400mp 250fu
- Repair Medium: 50mu (83.3% of panther's repair cost)
- Side Skirts: 30fu (75% of panther's side skirts cost)
- MG42: 30mu (100% [same as] panther's mg42 cost)

Stug costs 300mp 150fu
- Repair Medium: 30mu (50% of panther's repair cost)
- Side Skirts: 25fu (62.5% of panther's side skirts cost)
- MG42: 50mu (166.6% of panther's mg42 cost)

Apart from the mg42's which have different strengths, I think the upgrade costs need to be more proportional to their platform cost.
These are what I think they should be priced at based on the percentage difference in tank costs

P4: 400mp (66.6% cost of panther) and 250fu (55.5% cost of panther)
- Repair Medium: Either 40mu (66.6% cost of panther's repair) or 35mu (58.3%)
- Side Skirts: 25fu (62.5% of panther's side skirts cost)
- Mg42: Remain at 30mu (same as panther's mg42 cost, but more effective)

Stug: 300mp (50% cost of panther) and 150fu (33% cost of panther)
- Repair Medium: 25mu (41.6% of panther's repair cost)
- Side Skirts: 15fu (37.5% of panther's side skirts cost)
- MG42: 30mu (same as panther's mg42 cost, but much more effective, on a much less survivable platform)

Allied armor could undergo similar upgrade changes.

With this easy solution, all tank upgrades are fairly proportional to their base cost and survivability. The heavier the tank, the more bang for the buck you are getting for your upgrades, but only slight savings compared to previously, and at the cost of putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

[hans]

L2P?

[aeroblade56]

1. Your bias due to you assessment taking only axis tanks into consideration. i remember when wind used to Run me over with a panther.

2. please post in a bigger format.

3. crush is a gameplay mechanic you can do it i can do we can do it. sure speed certainly makes it effective but what if you nerf the m10? ill just get mobile warfare problem??.

[Falcon333]

Just for the record. Circle strafing in MoW is entirely possible, and arguably even easier.

[PonySlaystation]

- Like others have said, a TD being able to roll over inf with ease is unbalanced.

Not only is crush an intended COH mechanic, it's also one of the easiest thing to counter in the mod. Mines kill infantry too, a SE minefield could potentially kill every single infantry unit you have, so you learn to counter it, bring some minesweepers on. The exact same thing applies to crush, an m10 could potentially kill all your infantry if you don't learn the very basic means of countering it.

Infantry crush is a fools game. Unlike kiting that can be really difficult to counter because the unit is always out of range, infantry crushing requires the tank to be in extreme close range of your infantry, allowing you to take it out with ease with AT grenades and Pak, before you lose any infantry.

Basically you shouldn't mess with core mechanics of the game, that will just have bad effects,  instead watch replays for a healthy dose of L2P.

I think the obvious solution is to increase the manpower cost of TDs and Heavies since that seems to be the main problem, the fact that you can field a lot of TDs which are so much cheaper than Mediums in terms of manpower and the same thing applies to Heavies, you'll save manpower by replacing Mediums with Heavies.

[UndeathWrath]

1. Your bias due to you assessment taking only axis tanks into consideration. i remember when wind used to Run me over with a panther.

2. please post in a bigger format.

3. crush is a gameplay mechanic you can do it i can do we can do it. sure speed certainly makes it effective but what if you nerf the m10? ill just get mobile warfare problem??.

I posted about what I know best, the axis. An experienced allied player can easily apply my suggested tank upgrade price changes to allied armor based on percentages.

The only thing biased here is you, because you couldn't stop a panther, a heavy tank, from rolling over you. Lol!

Just for the record. Circle strafing in MoW is entirely possible, and arguably even easier.

lol what game were you playing? I invite you to try and circle strafe my pak 40 with a single guy with a panzershrek hiding behind it. One shot anything fast enough to close in before I can turn my pak. Or try and circle strafe my Tiger. LOL. You would need 10 shermans to circle my Tiger in an open field, just like real life 

Not only is crush an intended COH mechanic, it's also one of the easiest thing to counter in the mod. Mines kill infantry too, a SE minefield could potentially kill every single infantry unit you have, so you learn to counter it, bring some minesweepers on. The exact same thing applies to crush, an m10 could potentially kill all your infantry if you don't learn the very basic means of countering it.

Infantry crush is a fools game. Unlike kiting that can be really difficult to counter because the unit is always out of range, infantry crushing requires the tank to be in extreme close range of your infantry, allowing you to take it out with ease with AT grenades and Pak, before you lose any infantry.

Basically you shouldn't mess with core mechanics of the game, that will just have bad effects,  instead watch replays for a healthy dose of L2P.

I think the obvious solution is to increase the manpower cost of TDs and Heavies since that seems to be the main problem, the fact that you can field a lot of TDs which are so much cheaper than Mediums in terms of manpower and the same thing applies to Heavies, you'll save manpower by replacing Mediums with Heavies.

Comparing this mod to CoH mechanics is a useless argument. Reinforcement is an intended CoH mechanic, why was it taken out?

I didn't say eliminate crush, I said the m10 superlul powerslide needs to be prevented. Right what do you do when 2 m10s simultaneously instantly kill 2 spread out 4man shrecked grenadier squads and precede to circle strafe your ATG and mop up the rest of your infantry force. LOL wait they're tank destroyers?? Shab did this to me a whileeeee back.

Admittedly shabtajus is the only player who I've seen with the skill to exploit this to such a degree. But this shouldn't be possible.

You guys think fixing this bs tactic will cause noobs to leave, seriously? How do you think a newbie will feel in this mod when his entire inf gets rolled over by tank destroyers? Haha. He'll just think to himself wtf is this bs /quitmod.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Not only is crush an intended COH mechanic

But this really isn't COH anymore is it.

It is not a tiered based game.

It doesn't revolve around resource gain and unit building. (and how to base quickly and effectively.)

And when m10s crush 90% of a squad i don't go Ho Hum, retreat reinforce it was like nothing happened.

Lets face it crush in vcoh is insignificant due to the fact that resources lost generally are made back up in a few seconds. In eirr resources lost are gone for the battle.

[UndeathWrath]

But this really isn't COH anymore is it.

It is not a tiered based game.

It doesn't revolve around resource gain and unit building. (and how to base quickly and effectively.)

And when m10s crush 90% of a squad i don't go Ho Hum, retreat reinforce it was like nothing happened.

Exactly...

[hans]

I posted about what I know best, the axis. An experienced allied player can easily apply my suggested tank upgrade price changes to allied armor based on percentages.

The only thing biased here is you, because you couldn't stop a panther, a heavy tank, from rolling over you. Lol!

lol what game were you playing? I invite you to try and circle strafe my pak 40 with a single guy with a panzershrek hiding behind it. One shot anything fast enough to close in before I can turn my pak. Or try and circle strafe my Tiger. LOL. You would need 10 shermans to circle my Tiger in an open field, just like real life 

Comparing this mod to CoH mechanics is a useless argument. Reinforcement is an intended CoH mechanic, why was it taken out?

I didn't say eliminate crush, I said the m10 superlul powerslide needs to be prevented. Right what do you do when 2 m10s simultaneously instantly kill 2 spread out 4man shrecked grenadier squads and precede to circle strafe your ATG and mop up the rest of your infantry force. LOL wait they're tank destroyers?? Shab did this to me a whileeeee back.

Admittedly shabtajus is the only player who I've seen with the skill to exploit this to such a degree. But this shouldn't be possible.

You guys think fixing this bs tactic will cause noobs to leave, seriously? How do you think a newbie will feel in this mod when his entire inf gets rolled over by tank destroyers? Haha. He'll just think to himself wtf is this bs /quitmod.

L2P?

we dont change working mechanics because of a noob being not able to handle it!

[smurfORnot]

You guys think fixing this bs tactic will cause noobs to leave, seriously? How do you think a newbie will feel in this mod when his entire inf gets rolled over by tank destroyers? Haha. He'll just think to himself wtf is this bs /quitmod.

a new guy bring his expensive vet3 dedicated AI 4man KCH,wild m10 appears,dedicated TD,few seconds later his KCH squads is RIP. Clearly there is something wrong with this. (actually you will probably kill KCH faster with m10 by crushing them,and probably snipe 1 guy in process,than you will do with 75mm sherman,who is supposed to be AI platform  )

[PonySlaystation]

Lets face it crush in vcoh is insignificant due to the fact that resources lost generally are made back up in a few seconds. In eirr resources lost are gone for the battle.

But a tank trying to crush infantry is even more doomed than the infantry.

TDs don't have a lot of health so you can kill it before it reaches you infantry, when it reaches your infantry, or if you're really slow and the TD actually manages to run over infantry then it gets slowed giving you even more time to kill it, not to mention if you have slow mines or teller mines or LAHT, the tank will be even more doomed.

[nikomas]

The biggest issue in my book is the fact that the M10 hardcounters infartry AT and other epensive infartry as long as it has some speed going (and that's not to difficult) how is this cool in any way shape or form on a cheap tank destroyer?

[UndeathWrath]

But a tank trying to crush infantry is even more doomed than the infantry.

TDs don't have a lot of health so you can kill it before it reaches you infantry, when it reaches your infantry, or if you're really slow and the TD actually manages to run over infantry then it gets slowed giving you even more time to kill it, not to mention if you have slow mines or teller mines or LAHT, the tank will be even more doomed.

Seriously man let's be realistic. Kill a TD before it can kill your inf....do you really believe in what you're saying? You can have a shrek squad and a pak and an experienced player with an m10 will roll over the shreks in one swift movement, followed by circle strafing your pak. His m10 TD wiped out plenty of INFANTRY AT. Now imagine what he can do with 2 or 3 m10s.

This isn't even a discussion about whether or not you can stop this exploitation, it's about whether it should be ALLOWED in this game in the first place. Again, I'm not suggesting removing crush. I'm suggesting making it less wtfpwn and more in line with hicks suggestion of giving it a substantial speed and acceleration penalty briefly after crushing an infantryman.

The biggest issue in my book is the fact that the M10 hardcounters infartry AT and other epensive infartry as long as it has some speed going (and that's not to difficult) how is this cool in any way shape or form on a cheap tank destroyer?

There is nothing cool or sensible about it. Some allied players just cannot be bothered to actually support their TD, they instead want it to be able to crush any and all infantry in a funny cartoon style way.

[tank130]

But this really isn't COH anymore is it.

It is not a tiered based game.

It doesn't revolve around resource gain and unit building. (and how to base quickly and effectively.)

And when m10s crush 90% of a squad i don't go Ho Hum, retreat reinforce it was like nothing happened.

Lets face it crush in vcoh is insignificant due to the fact that resources lost generally are made back up in a few seconds. In eirr resources lost are gone for the battle.

Thanks Spartan, you took the words right out of my mouth. The only similarity left between this mod and vCoH is, we use the same skins and a few maps. Even the maps have to be changed to play this mod.

Comparing anything in this MOd to vCoH is kinda silly to be honest.