88 Change

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[smurfORnot]

takes for ever for 2 atg's to kill 88 

[AmPM]

Yea, too few counters to 88 doomfort now.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Protip: 88s can't shoot at targets they can not see.

really?

oh wait, 88 arty just raped that theory.

[8thRifleRegiment]

a Bike also does...so does a sniper.... its called scouting. Its a protip

[FailHammer]

I use 88s, I dont spam them, I think the problem is when people have 5 in their company. But cmon, its a huge investment in pop, and it cant fucking move. I dont just mean the pop of the gun. med bunker mg, scouts, doomfort. What do we do to a doomfort? Arty it. drop ab and rr it, snipe it, rush it, ignore it, kill its support off.

Ant the 88 arty, I like it, not too acc and only 3 shells. With acc nerf it needs arty for mortars etc. makes it slightly more useful. I play allies a ton, 88s arent supermen, grow up.

[WildZontar]

Just like to point out dropping AB DIRECTLY or AROUND on the 88 is probably the worst idea ever.

[aeroblade56]

88 is a beautiful investment considering if its in the right spot and map its GG for instance point du hoc. you fucking put a 88 in that map and no one has artillery its pretty GEGE. considering it can hit every unit ingame fairly well for 8 pop you can fight the world and deny a huge amount of territory.

[InecatInDunare]

Not even talking about the fact that an supervise 88 can one shot an M8 with ridicaulos accuracy.

[3rdCondor]

The 88 should be able to destroy atgs and vehicles... because that's what you buy it for. Noone should be able to charge atgs and/ or tanks in to kill a cannon without heavy losses. I do, however, have a problem with the 88 being able to fire accurate artillery at targets. The 88 shouldn't be able to counter the best weapon to use against it... mortars.

Get rid of 88 artillery, and the allies will be able to use mortars to attack it. This will force axis to try and counter mortar with their own mortars and provide for a more interesting duel of indirect fire to cover the 88. Get rid of the arty first before you nerf it even more.

[rolcsika0128]

The 88 should be able to destroy atgs and vehicles... because that's what you buy it for. Noone should be able to charge atgs and/ or tanks in to kill a cannon without heavy losses. I do, however, have a problem with the 88 being able to fire accurate artillery at targets. The 88 shouldn't be able to counter the best weapon to use against it... mortars.

Get rid of 88 artillery, and the allies will be able to use mortars to attack it. This will force axis to try and counter mortar with their own mortars and provide for a more interesting duel of indirect fire to cover the 88. Get rid of the arty first before you nerf it even more.

I totally agree.. Just remove the flak arty. Then it will play the role what it is meant to: provide huge area denial, and kill everything on wheels which is foolish enough to get close.

[Smokaz]

Let's talk about long range AT while at the same time doing the amazing feat of disregarding our favoritism for one specific long range anti everything unit in the mod for coh named EIRR.

Take your eyes to our new units, reward or otherwise. Units that are different or do not exist in vcoh, but do or are different in EIRR: Now how many units have been introduced for axis or allies that have great accuracy vs vehicles (at guns included) and tanks that have 100 range?

Oh, right. Zero. So maybe in some dumb dumb manner we can deduce that this is hard to do right. It's hard to justify introducing a maus, elephant [insert animal name here] where this could be done right. We introduce slow lumbering anti tank platforms with 40 or 45 range or some shit armor type with lockdown or atrocious rotation that keeps them 'balanced'.

Let us all marvel at the brilliance of our design, of our community. We are a great bunch. But is it incorrect to state that nothing else works like the 88 in EIRR? We don't have 8-pop howies defending themself vs anything it can shoot on with awesome penetration.

We fail to introduce long armed AT as reward units, we don't give sturmtiger or whatever awesome long range splash (semi-arty) because.. for some reason the guise in charge don't think it's a good idea, nor does the community cry out in want for above-firefly range type of AT units.

But the arty 88 is FINE. Nothing is like it in any doctrine or faction, but hey, it's cool. Derp.

If we can't introduce axis long range AT raping machines - even with reward point card or point costs - then why is it so hard to acknowledge that something is up with a 100 range unit that can hit both vehicles, infantry and precious ATGs.

Where is the allied equivavelent? Where is the other 100 range anti atg units for the other factions, that defend themselves and defend themselves even better with support? Oh shit they dont exist.

88 with arty, even with its map dependancy (which arty option helps mitigate) is just straight up too good. It's not OP at its artillery job though its cooldown is comparable to other dedicated arty units. It's perhaps not even OP vs armor, as we all have some expectations from what initially was a 8 pop AT gun. What is the core issue here is that it was made stronger vs at guns, which we at this point can start realizing did *not* work out well and start lobbying for reverting.

Get to it gentlemen. I have enough changes with my name on.

[EIRRMod]

Get to it gentlemen. I have enough changes with my name on.

Its already in the works.

As if you didnt know!  Oh you!

GET OUT OF THE BATCAVE!  LAST TIME!

lol

[Shabtajus]

Delfinas is right, ask any allied about 88s and u will face endless QQ river, same with axis boys who dont want any changes to BALANCED  unit. Had 2 times amazing game with 11 88s on the field, and next time 9 of them. Its just retarded. Axis QQ about bars spam + atgs wall or m10s,but its aint that hard to deal with it,  plus it requires micro to control rfls or rest stuff since 8 pop unit aint requires any micro. Everytime i am playing defensive coy i am just chilling out on the couch, grabbing some drink and playing lol. At the end of the day we have full lobby of axis cuz allies are just BORING (lol) but not HARD to play

[RikiRude]

Can someone tell me what is different on the 88 from like 6 months ago or what ever when I played last? The last time I played against an 88 it wasn't a problem, and it was vs a good player.

[chefarzt]

Why that long talkathon?    88 arty is retarded .
 Has , been, will always be. Just kick it it out.
U want indirect fire for def buff the stuka halftrack or make it cheaper.

Or make basic inf cheaper for def so u can go on the offense.
But yeah i know price reduction is out of question.
Dunno.
88 arty gotta go. For good

[Mysthalin]

Can someone tell me what is different on the 88 from like 6 months ago or what ever when I played last? The last time I played against an 88 it wasn't a problem, and it was vs a good player.

1 88 is not a problem.

Fight 3 players with 4 88s each, it becomes an issue.

[chefarzt]

Its just too potent atm.Take that indirect away. Just give peeps an option to attack. Perhaps sight range for pumas, whatever just brainfarts.

[Smokaz]

Can someone tell me what is different on the 88 from like 6 months ago or what ever when I played last? The last time I played against an 88 it wasn't a problem, and it was vs a good player.

88 vs at gun matchup was changed. On paper it was supposed to nerf them vs each other, but the def doc buffs and the 88 weapon itself ends up making the matchup heavily skewed towards the 88.

I can definitely respect the fact that the BT comes up with stuff that is unexpected, but in the case of the 88 I can't find any discussion previously that leads up to this change. 88 vs at gun change was just out of the blue and didn't have the effect it was supposed to achieve.

A lot of people defend the 88 with saying it has to be good area denier, but there are plenty of units with a lack of mobility that cost more pop than the 88 and can hit less targets, while having less range. 100 range is a big deal for a direct fire unit, immobile or no. As for maps even on Neuville 2 arty flaks 16/80 pop can still
pose a problem.

Back ago we also had the situation of a lot of reward points, in fact it's just now recently it has started to dry out. A lot of reward units for axis required fuel. Could have played in.

Also defensive also have a underperforming dedicated arty piece already - the stuka ht. How many of these do you see compared to the 88? The stuka ht is actually a dedicated arty unit, yet its so much less worthwhile to pull on one of these for 8 pop than a 88.

Change defensive so that 88s are not multitools vs everything and allow gameplay centered around stukas to be more effective.

Anyways, as moaned about a thousand times before this is a problem caused by how doctrine buffs work. A 88 with arty is clearly worth at least as much as a arty piece + the normal 88 cost itself. If the price reflected the increased potency of the unit, it would possibly be 150-200 fuel more. Sure you could have 4 arty 88s, but that would be all you had for fuel.

[chefarzt]

So u say
stukas it is,

btw.:Nigga stole my bike

[3rdCondor]

I would still propose eliminating the artillery ability, but maybe placing a cap on the number of 88s one can buy. How about 2 per company? That would be similar to a tiger cap. Will this fix it? I don't know, but let's find out before we nerf the units capabilities. The common problem across the board is that 88 SPAM is a very bad thing. We will always have the problem with 4v4s, or 3v3s where each axis player has their own 88 on the field. That same problem can apply to many units. As it stands right now, each of those axis players can have as many 88s as he/she can buy. If we cap the number that someone can purchase, we can allow for the 88 to remain an effective unit, but prevent players from being able to each have 3+ in their companies. Basically... it could help.

I also reiterate my last message about eliminating the 88s capability of engaging the mortar by itself with its own indirect fire.

Nerfing the units' effectiveness in stats won't fix the problem with spamming because the 88 has to at least be good enough to rape tanks and vehicles to be worth purchasing. Basically 88 spam will always be good enough to be able to dominate against any build without howitzers (as long as the arty remains... because it IS accurate).

We will never be able to truly predict any outcome, but we can test things and see if they work. This is my offer I'm bringing to the table, seriously.

EDITED