Sherm croc

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[Hicks58]

There's a good reason that we don't rely on anecdotal evidence in the slightest Niko.

Good reasons like the Shreck having a 52.92% chance to penetrate Churchill armour.

Also, Pak's have the following penetration rates against Churchill armour:

Long: 44.85%
Medium: 47.5%
Short: 65.96%

So pak's would still be fairly reliable against them too. Ambush modifiers would mean that the first shot would still have a respectable chance of penetrating too.

[Ahnungsloser]

Small question:
Is it right that the Sherman Crocodile had some time ago the Churchill Armour and it got removed back?

When this is right - What was the major reason of this backstep? Maybe we can learn from the past
and go a different way.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

It had it if you bought bulldozer on it.
got changed to 50 health intstead.

[Hicks58]

Except the Croc will then have 836 health.

For reference, the Pershing has 990 and the Sherman has 636.

[nikomas]

And you dont see a problem with the sherman magicallly being able to bounce over 50% of the at hits going in?

[brn4meplz]

Small question:
Is it right that the Sherman Crocodile had some time ago the Churchill Armour and it got removed back?

When this is right - What was the major reason of this backstep? Maybe we can learn from the past
and go a different way.

Churchill armour on the Croc never worked. It was a self cancelling upgrade in ther RGD's. Whoever coded it got the Bulldozer part wrong

[Smokaz]

What about just making the bulldozer set its health to 736 or give it like 10% less received penetration? With a small price nerf to the upgrade itself, ofc.

[Ahnungsloser]

Giving it mor health and received penetration bonusses +stacked with the urban survival kit could be and into a disaster because now
you can just crush into a doomfort, and with enough health and bounced shots you can easily pass it and start to toast some support wapeons without paying attention to much stuff.

It will result that the crocs will be used like M10s but with the difference that you can soak up enough damage while driving right towards and finaly killing
the crew. It's just a mindgame but I don't want to see something like this.

[Smokaz]

Giving it mor health and received penetration bonusses +stacked with the urban survival kit could be and into a disaster because now
you can just crush into a doomfort, and with enough health and bounced shots you can easily pass it and start to toast some support wapeons without paying attention to much stuff.

Thats the point of short ranged assault units, there has to be a significant ability to deal damage when you get into range and has to c o m m i t the unit to the fight, risking to not be able to use the repair kit.

It will result that the crocs will be used like M10s but with the difference that you can soak up enough damage while driving right towards and finaly killing
the crew. It's just a mindgame but I don't want to see something like this.

Omg the croc killled something?

Look at the SE ist before you go all oh noes about the armor/inf ami croc. That's where the doctrine buffed armor croc should be. And it can't even hurt light vehicles.

[RoyalHants]

Thats the point of short ranged assault units, there has to be a significant ability to deal damage when you get into range and has to c o m m i t the unit to the fight, risking to not be able to use the repair kit.

Omg the croc killled something?

Look at the SE ist before you go all oh noes about the armor/inf ami croc. That's where the doctrine buffed armor croc should be. And it can't even hurt light vehicles.

+1

[Mysthalin]

Small question:
Is it right that the Sherman Crocodile had some time ago the Churchill Armour and it got removed back?

When this is right - What was the major reason of this backstep? Maybe we can learn from the past
and go a different way.

The reason why it got reverted was because, at the time, with two certain T3s in armour doctrine and vet 1 you could stack the health to be 890, have 6.24 speed and only pay 7 popcap on the sherman croc. Alongside +10 sight range. At vet 3 the health would become 1068 - the exact same as tiger health.

It was no wonder I had 3 vet 3 sherman crocs at the time, and 4 vet 2s.

The churchil armour was really only icing on the cake.

[Ahnungsloser]

Hm, that's a good point haven't even think about that the PIV IST can hurt small vehicles -
But the 57mm ATG has higher penetration values against the PIV as the for example the Panzerschreck against the Churchill Armour so that you can't just drive towards an 57mm ATG, just two shots and half health for it is gone.

Maybe some other people have some good ideas for the Sherman Crocodile.

[Demon767]

remove the unit, no more problems.

[Mysthalin]

But the 57mm ATG has higher penetration values against the PIV as the for example the Panzerschreck against the Churchill Armour so that you can't just drive towards an 57mm ATG, just two shots and half health for it is gone.

Why are you comparing a mainstray ATG to a piece of handheld AT?

If you were to compare the 57mm to the pak (a more reasonable comparison) - the pak has more DPS than even an AP-rounding 57mm (by 1%), penetration being ignored and assuming the pak never fires a cloak shot. The sheer rate of fire of the pak makes it a far better ATG, even with the slightly lower damage. Sure, if comparing churchil armour to P4 armour - the pak is shafted into more or less equality, but considering the complete inability for the croc to do ANYTHING other than burn infantry, I think that's more than fair.

As for the panzershrek - it is the best handheld AT weapon in the game per-unit. Two RRs are better than a single shrek - and pay for it in munitions, and 2 PIATs have the potential to be better if the enemy is very unlucky, or very retarded. But you don't balance based on what retarded people would do.

[TheVolskinator]

The Germans get the cool shit.

[Ahnungsloser]

Why are you comparing a mainstray ATG to a piece of handheld AT?

As I went to bed I noticed that it's a kind of fail to compare an ATG with handheld AT, just
grabbed the closest example I could refer in this thread without rethinking about it.


So..
Are the health and received penetration bonusses still a option? Or is there other stuff
we should consider into our discussion?

[NightRain]

Crocodile is useless against cheap hordes of infantry (Like panzerfaust equipped volksgrenadier hordes) while it can cause a lot of damage it won't do anything crucially painful. Terror in the other hand, their 4 man KCH blobs think otherwise when facing a croc. Same with Elite Armor Storms and Grenadiers. Other than that Croc is just another suicide unit you throw at the enemy to torch out that mg from a building or chase a blob away.

It has the best synergy with Airborne due to RRs and airborne being crap vs infantry and the croc excells at killing infantry. This makes RRs the AT and crocs the steelwall and AI. With other doctrines, no, it isn't that useful, aside from being a suicide unit like the M10. Don't bother vetting up crocs, their role is to drive in, torch people and die, same with Flammenwerfers. With extra HP it lasts few more shots before dying in its task.

[Mister Schmidt]

lol

[Mysthalin]

As I went to bed I noticed that it's a kind of fail to compare an ATG with handheld AT, just
grabbed the closest example I could refer in this thread without rethinking about it.


So..
Are the health and received penetration bonusses still a option? Or is there other stuff
we should consider into our discussion?

I think we should consider bulldozer granting churchil armour, really.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Would it be possible to just add Less pen when the bulldozer is down?
Having it up would mean it would have normal speed and armor but when it would be put down it would be slowed down, have heavy crush (i know it already gives that) and be more resistant to penetration/ less received damadge.