CoH2 mirror match discussion.

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[brn4meplz]

There's a lot of these discussions popping up on boards around the community so I wanted to see where this community stands(given that EiR is an Axis VS Allies format)


Ive said this else where but I'll reiterate it here.
Personally I'm all for them from a competitive perspective. I'd lose my shit if my tournament life was decided by a random seed. Tournament format is always an odd number of matches so that there is no tie. Best of 1,3,5,7. So if both me and my opponent identify Axis as our dominant strength, who gets to play as them in the potentially tournament deciding match? Luck? Random seed? The winner? The loser? There's no ideal answer. Mirror matches remove all that uncertainty and the only casualty is some tradionalist notion of "it feels weird watching Germans fight Germans"

Where do you stand on it?

[tank130]

Mirror match sucks. It takes away a unique feature of CoH and makes it feel like playing pac man.......

[Hicks58]

Tbh, I like mirror matches. They make for entertaining gameplay.

However, it's not really something I appreciate in "Proper" matches. CoH has always felt to me that it's about Allies vs Axis when it comes down to it.

Definitely would want it in custom games, but I'm not entirely sold on ranked. Maybe a filter option for it when automatching.

[hans]

mirror matches hmm

i do see the point of high rank competitions where u want to find the best axis/russian player. Therefore it makes sense. It also makes automatching easier.

But

on the other hand it just destroys one of cohs strengths not to have mirrored factions. Therefore battles are different and interesting. Now in this context i find 1v1 only axis pretty boring. This also includes the historical background u also cant ignore as being a great part of the game. Why the hell shell i play russians against russians? Thats fucked up for everyone who likes the historical view (although relic is not paying that much attention to historical accurracy).

To sum it up, the only point i see positive is the search for best axis/russian player, but for most normal combats its stupid.

[Spartan_Marine88]

I wish it were restricted to its own league and not forced down our throat.

To quote Imperial Dane (something i do not like to do) "There is a reason only one mod has made mirror matching, its just not interesting."

[Smokaz]

Dislike

[RikiRude]

I wish it were restricted to its own league and not forced down our throat.

To quote Imperial Dane (something i do not like to do) "There is a reason only one mod has made mirror matching, its just not interesting."

i agree, i really really don't like it, but i understand the need for it for tournament play. the lack of mirror makes coh incredibly interesting especially in team games. I personally hope it gets taken out, I dont want to see it in public games, or I want to option to choose non-mirrored matches and auto matches.

but correct me if im wrong, didnt vCoH have mirror matches in it's beta or alpha?

[brn4meplz]

I'd love to be able to say "Keep it out of Ranked Automatch" but when I look at the breakdown I can't justify that statement.


I'm going to assume that both of what I list next are taken as inviolate competitive law.

Gameplay and Balance trump Realism. We've argued this before and I don't know anyone who disagrees with this statement.

Gameplay must be balanced at the highest possible tier of play. If anyone disagrees with me on this... get bent scrub. I've had this argument 100 times in the past with crappy players and what it comes down to is that if a game is balanced around the mediocre or mid line players then the best players are going to take the tools they have and destroy anything that moves. And they'll do it with far too much ease.

With those two things in consideration, I feel it has to be in ranked. If competitive play is the pinnacle and Ranked Automatch is a good reflection of standings it would have to be there. If Mirror Matches are not there, then it won't be in Tournaments because no one has to play with it on a regular basis. If it's not in tournaments then you hit the problem I Outlined before and now you've got an avoidable bias in a competitive community. I'd like to see CoH2 more competitive, completely putting aside the things Relic needs to add like Spectator slots and In game stats panels for Spectators.

Any arguments about "Balance nightmares" or "Realism" are completely unfounded as far as I'm concerned(and there's a lot of them out there - Infact alot of people think CoH is a realistic RTS? the fuck is that?)

The only actual issue I have with it is Team matches, but I don't consider those anything but custom games anyway. And of course EiR2(or whatever) will be faction locked so I'm fine with it there too.

[tank130]

Currently the factions (in CoH1) are designed to fight each other with completely different abilities and play style. Axis with smaller unit sizes and bigger strength vs larger cheaper and weaker unit sizes.

How could you state that balance does not become a problem?

I feel if you allow "mirror matches" then you might as well design "mirror" factions....I would pass on that thanks.

[brn4meplz]

RTS's have allowed Mirror matches since their inception. and it hasn't been an issue. Statistical balance from a straight ahead standpoint is even less of an issue in a Mirror Match. Each player has access to identical units. It doesn;t get much more fair than that.

Of course you don;t want everyone Spamming X because it's the strongest and you need balance in that sense, but from a purity standpoint Mirror matches are as balanced as it ever gets.

No where in the Design of Germans and Russians does it mean that they need to be the same. The challenge is on Relic to make all factions appealing to the player base. German vs German would become more methodical and thought out, Russian vs Russian would be colossal skirmishes and harassment on both sides. The things that make each faction unique, used against itself. Not only that but the inclusion of Mirror matches opens the door for future western factions in the game. Part of the reason that CoH1 never expanded with the Russians is because they said they wouldn't fit in with the Western Front feel.

If Mirror Matches go through then there's not much Stopping an American/British/Japanese/whatever expansion in the future.

[nikomas]

Mirror matching can lead to very, very dull matchups, case and point russians vs. russians in coh2, although saying more would be bitching with the NDA

[brn4meplz]

Maybe you just played a dull matchup. In my experience between both players theres been like 9 squads. What ruins the game play right now is the tech speed and that should be changed soon. You can play pretty dull matchups Germans VS Russian, sometimes you just get dull players.

Speaking from a Competitive background in many different RTS titles, Mirror Matchups are no more bland then other matchups. In most cases it breeds interesting approaches to things. A good recent Example is Zerg vs Zerg in Starcraft 2. Often unused units become more important because of the factions strengths.

[tank130]

Brn, I do not play other games, so I can not compare.

Are the other RTS games you speak of designed like CoH where every faction is completely unique in their design and play style?

I don't know for sure, but sounds VERY boring to me.

[brn4meplz]

Command and Conquer released in '94 and both GDI and NOD had vastly different arsenals and play styles.
Starcraft had 3 Factions, Warcraft had 4, Starcraft 2 has 3. All of those games are fundamentally very different and each faction within them functions and operates very differently.

Even Supreme Commander which had arguably the most vanilla of different factions had 3(4) factions and though each unit was a archetype they still functioned differently.


The only games that are 'Mirrored' are things like Go, chess, Checkers. I haven't seen an RTS with different factions that play the same in more then like 2 decades. Supreme commander comes close, but even then only in the opening stage of the game.

[EIRRMod]

Supreme commander comes close, but even then only in the opening stage of the game.

And even at the start of the game, the 'mirrored' units arent.  Its like saying a Sherman and a PIV are mirrored - both similar enough, but vastly different.

[brn4meplz]

Yeah. the tanks are different.

I meant more in the fact each player starts with a Commander, and each commander is pretty Similar without upgrades.( 10K,11K,12 HP's) (120dps,100dps100dps)

[Heartmann]

Tbh you guys forgott The dawn if war series I, now there you could go al out mirror battles and have shit tonnes of fun, but the thing is that the reason I'd play dawn of war is sort of same to Starcraft I, in the sense I want to see hoards of poor sods get mushed into mashed limbs and toenails under treads, boots, shells and down right ass pounding.

Where as Coh falls under the historical era where one wants to see the gay French cab fall under a hail of English long ow archer fire or dirty Russians sawed to shit by Mg fire

[Tymathee]

lulz, can u imagine mirroed eir matches lol

i see the positive and negatives of this.

I do think having a bunch of axis battling it out for #1 and allies battling for #1 and then they face each other is quite epic

It's a game, it should be treated as such.

[Baine]

I dont see anything wrong with mirror matches. Dont really notice it much. As long as there is an EiR2 then idc

[EliteGren]

Port the mirror matches to EIR2 too! Never ever wait for a game again because everyone can play axis lulz