Map Review

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[hans]

PS: as an example of how this works is troam de caen tbh. it has been played 6 times until now, already guys spread rumours about it being a big clusterfuck. I do have to admit then, that 4 games of that 6 were playtests with a unfinished product and lots of issues that have been fixed.

So we see in total 2 games regular played, and already we have this:

TroamDeCaen:

I like the idea of this map and it looks very nice, there is just one big problem: the pathing is really, really messed up. I was in a 3v3 earlier where all people seemed to do all game is complain and struggle with it. I noticed it as well (...)

but instead of writing on the forum what has to be fixed, players remain silent. I guess changing the pathing on that maps is a small issue and fast fixed. At least if u know where u have to look at.

Instead rumours are getting spread out again like dont play this map it has fucked up pathing. If we handle every map like this that needs small tweaks, we can forget it.

[tank130]

Dat feel when Lead mod/ money man doesn't believe in his staff.

Not my staff -we are a team dumbass
The team would completely agree for the following reasons:
  - It took 5 years to get a warmap out. One of the biggest priorities of the mods advancement.
  - The suggested map option would require redesign or rework of the launcher. For the option to actually work, it would have to force you into that map when you got in game. The coding requirements would be massive if even possible.
Next time you want to take a shot at me, try to use your fucking brain first. 

On another note Neuville has great pathing and is flexible and doesn't really give one side a advantage over the other. All these new maps seem like they have alot of buildings and that alone fucks with pathing Not to mention effective flanking ability as your hampered by objects.

Thank you for posting this. This is exactly the issue we are facing and why we need to get people trying to play the maps.

I will use D-Day as an example because I am most familiar with it.

Number of building in D-Day = 22
Number of building in Neuville = 24

Left flank of D Day - take a close look at it. It is a stamp of the left flank of Neuville
Right flank - The distance from the left most building and the cliff wall is the exact same size as the right flank of Neuville. The biggest difference is the trenches. They make it more difficult then the lone house on Neuville.

However - Neuville does not have the additional massive right flank D Day has - the entire beach area.

So what you have done Areo, is post uninformed bullshit, with out playing the map. Then someone else comes along and say, "I heard that map had too many houses and no flanks"

That is why I am suggesting holding peoples hands a little so they actually try the maps instead of spreading bullshit.

[LeoPhone]

I have made massive efforts to clearly state that Neuville is a great map. I have made massive efforts to clearly state we should temporarily remove it to give other maps a chance.

Temporarily

If you look at the design of D-Day, you will see it follows Skaffas design philosophy EXACTLY

Temporarily or not, if its not needed (or even hurts instead of do good) it shouldn't be done.

Werther or not D-day is just as good as neuville is decided by the players, not by the map creator. To be honest this almost seems like your map can't match up to neuville and are now pushing for an unfair advantage by removing neuville from your competition.


Anyway, lets take a look at D-day. http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=25565.0
this is what I see:
center - No cover for infantry to fight in. neuville does have super cover in the middle.
beach side - huge cliff and trenches make this side useless to go to because you can't move around and use as a flank position. tank traps fuck up pathing. neuville has its flanks connected to the center everywere allowing the player to move.
other side - too close to the middle to flank, not really open either. on neuville the sides are far enough from the center to flank unnoticed and open to prevent pathing fuckups and allow free movement.
middle areas in front & behind center - this is where people want to park their army, but on d-day there are groves and these tree plantages placed there, making it impossible to set up there. on neuville these areas are wide open and its easy to move to any part of the map from there.

Neuville is good because it has the perfect balance between:
- being able to move around while still being able to lock down a lane
- enough cover while not screwing over pathfinding
- enough shot blockers to prevent ATG/88 ownage & allow mortar usage etc. while not having too much which makes it impossible to move around or defend lanes. This 3rd point is very connected to the first point. If you want more buildings in your map you need to reduce the maps size. If half your map is unusable because of a beach, huge cliff and trench... good luck.

[LeoPhone]

Honestly don't think having only one map in your game is a death sentence. DotA is doing just fine with only one map and EIR is doing fine with a few good maps.
If new good maps can be added to EIR then thats great I guess, but don't push it to extreme measures like breaking the game by removing the best map.

[hans]

wow atleast 1 detailed review since this map was added. Either u help the guys who are making maps by playing them and give feedback or u dont add new maps.

I think removing the first 5 to 10 maps would cause wonders. Because ones u have to think about what u play on, the changes will be made fast (deletion or adjustement).

right now u dont have to think about new maps if u simply do what has been proven over time, no issues on neuville tanteville and so on. so why to think about new maps?

Leophone is giving the best example. he says neuville is best and does not even think about new maps or helping with feedback.

[LeoPhone]

Hans, I gave that review without even playing the map, only looked at the pics.

also, wtf are you talking about in your post? don't understand it at all.

[hans]

Hans, I gave that review without even playing the map, in fact I havent played EIR for weeks.

yo, u have good eyes and experience. But this is not for every player given. Playtest is essential. Feedback too.

[hans]

also, wtf are you talking about in your post? don't understand it at all.

and what are u not understanding?

[aeroblade56]

I will be back within a couple of hours to post a full report of the maps i have played.

[tank130]

Werther or not D-day is just as good as neuville is decided by the players, not by the map creator. To be honest this almost seems like your map can't match up to neuville and are now pushing for an unfair advantage by removing neuville from your competition.

Don't you dare start pushing that bullshit Leo. That is a cunt move and you know it.

I went out of my way to push all the other maps and keep myself as neutral as possible. I only used dday in the last example because I have the exact stats of that map and I used Neuville as the template.

I would be a complete cunt to try and compare other maps in that detail that I did not create.

I am really fucking  pissed off Leo that you would try and start that kind of bullshit argument- Don't be a cunt.


Now that is cleared up, lets try and have an objective conversation about maps and map design.

1.) I have gone through the map forums.... and guess what. Neuville was not perfected on it's first attempt. In fact, a number of changes were made. As well, the biggest complaint was that it was too big for a 3v3. Funny how times change with actually playing it.

2.) If Eirr is fine with only one map, then lets delete them all except Tanteville - it was considered the number 1 map for a long time and we did just fine with it. Or perhaps we just find the very first custom map implemented and go back to that.
That is a very ridiculous argument Leo. This mod is about customization - not one size fits all.

3.) What tank traps are you talking about on D-Day. The ones on the beach? The ones way of the road in the area that is hardly even in the playable boundaries. The ones that are in the area that doesn't even impact the game play?
If you actually played the map instead of being an armchair quarter back, you would know they have absolutely no impact on the game or the pathing.

4.)

- too close to the middle to flank, not really open either.

Did you read the part where I said the left flank is a stamp of Neuville? How could it be too small if it is a stamp of the same thing?

5.) Oh noes...... the right flank is not a Neuville stamp, whatever will we do. How will we know how to play it?
Suggestion - try using the massive beach (twice as big as neuville's flank) to flank your enemy.


As I said, I am using D-Day as an example because I know the facts about it. I am not just pulling bullshit out of my ass based on a picture.

All of these new maps need to be played before you can judge them. Judging them by a picture and decreeing it as fact is bullshit. In fact Leo, if we followed that philosophy, all of your design suggestions would be completely ignored. Instead, we try then first.....

[LeoPhone]

yo, u have good eyes and experience. But this is not for every player given. Playtest is essential. Feedback too.

not every player can give useful feedback anyway. Most people just want to play the fucking game and have fun. Leave development to the developers they say. Those who want to give feedback feel free to do so. But don't sacrifice the fun game for the standard player for playtesting.

Testing new maps in the EIR environment is not perfect, but at the same time it is possible to make good maps with hardly any testing at all. Neuville was awesome from the start. having a few people who know what they're talking about think about the map is most of the work in making a good map. I have made multiple maps for EIR and asked/forced people to playtest them. In the end with bergen and the dike I still hardly knew what I was doing. But I've learned some things. Skaffa made the biggest revolution in map design and the way I think about map design now.

Now we have the skills in house it is no longer needed to go trough the pain of forcing our playerbase (who are here to have fun) to playtest bad maps. Anyway, if I still didn't convince you I suggest to take the positive approach into maptesting instead: Instead of removing neuville and forcing people to playtest maps hand out reward points to those who do playtest new maps and provide feedback in specified thread.

[tank130]

Neuville was awesome from the start.

I call BULLSHIT

There were a number of changes and a number of complaints when it first came out.

Hans, I gave that review without even playing the map, only looked at the pics.

Exactly the problem - basing your arguments on a couple of screen shots. You have got to be kidding me......LOL

Tell you what Leo, I will give you some pictures of what look like hot asian chicks.....then watch you get a surprise when you put your hand down their pants....LOL

If you don;t play the map, your opinion is useless.

[hans]

if the player has pathing issues, even a retard can tell u that as an example the freaking antitank-obstacle was causing it. But i have to agree some players arent really helpful. But if u have problems and complains, tell them open on forum with detail instead of spreading rumours.

Why do u always see black and white? u mark maps immediately as bad (so unworthy to look at) and good (awesome and perfect). This is very wrong, maps need adjustment in the building process.
If the pathing is a problem, and that way its hard to play on, its not immediately a bad map, but a map that needs a tweak. It was maybe an idividual case with skaffas maps, so not to be a general case.

Good idea with rewarding tbh.

PS: just because we have found a good map does not mean stopping to add more variation to EIRR. And tbh iam bored of neuville and tanteville and forest ...

[LeoPhone]

...

Ok so I pissed you off with that sentence at the start of my post - bad move from me. But that made you basically ignore and post random counterarguments against my post.

lets do one more round of forum discussion until im done here.

about point 4 you made:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk12/tank130/D-Day/relic00004_zps82387a92.jpg
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww49/wdbnld/relic00701.jpg
no.

I call BULLSHIT

There were a number of changes and a number of complaints when it first came out.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=15720.0
Thread of one page. No talk about new versions by skaffa, pictures look exact same as current version

Exactly the problem - basing your arguments on a couple of screen shots. You have got to be kidding me......LOL

Tell you what Leo, I will give you some pictures of what look like hot asian chicks.....then watch you get a surprise when you put your hand down their pants....LOL

If you don;t play the map, your opinion is useless.

I have played EIR a lot, I have mapped for EIR and know the dimensions, I understand the success of neuville. I can tell a lot by just looking at the pictures. Skaffa can explain how to design an entire map without even having a map to work with.

[hans]

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=15720.0
Thread of one page. No talk about new versions by skaffa, pictures look exact same as current version

i guess he himself has tested that map alot of time before he was posting it. Hes a very good player and knows what to look for. Most mapper arent being that experienced. Although i think that it was a pretty lucky case too.

[LeoPhone]

go ahead and call skaffa's success luck. But I don't see you making any good maps yet.

[tank130]

Ok so I pissed you off with that sentence at the start of my post - bad move from me. But that made you basically ignore and post random counterarguments against my post.

lets do one more round of forum discussion until im done here.

You are already done here Leo. In fact you should never have posted because your arguments are based on nothing but guess work.

In regards to Skaffas FINAL version of the map, scroll back a few more pages and look through the other threads, His introduction thread was moved or deleted, but you can fins several posts about the map in other threads.
And for fantasy sake, lets say by some random miracle Skaffa was capable of immaculate conception and created the perfect map in one shot. Are you suggesting everyone else should to, or we should just stop making maps because of it?

You show two pictures of two different maps at completely opposite ends and angles and say "no".
This is why you completely fail at map analysis. You are not even looking at the same flanks for fuck sakes......

I am on my way out for dinner. When I return I will post the flanks of both maps from the same perspective. You will be very embarrassed when you have to admit the left flank of dday is a stamp of neuville. I have told you that twice and you still fail to listen.

go ahead and call skaffa's success luck. But I don't see you making any good maps yet.

So you decide to insult his map making......... real pro stuff Leo.

[PonySlaystation]

The problem is, no one is trying the new maps unless forced to. They are passing judgement with out even looking at it.

No tank. You're wrong, it's the other way around. Everyone is playing the new maps, unless forced to play one of the old maps.

[aeroblade56]

go ahead and call skaffa's success luck. But I don't see you making any good maps yet.

Burn.

[hans]

go ahead and call skaffa's success luck. But I don't see you making any good maps yet.

if the pathing on troam de caen is fixed it is a good map. u dont believe me? well test it then and tell me what u dont like. Before u have played it, u just insult me without a real reason. Thx leo and **** urself with ur guesses srsly.