some Balance ideas

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[ick312]

good afternoon gentlemen,

well, there are some units that are really broken (my experience) and i also got the impression that many members of the community agree that these units are broken (THIS IS ONLY ABOUT THE REALLY HARD CASES)

These units are Grenadiers, Geschützwagen, Tiger, King Tiger, Panzerelite infantry, hellcat and the following docs Blitzkrieg middle t4 joint operations and Airborne top t4.

So here are suggestions to fix that:


geschützwagen
reload 7,5 => 20
reload multiplier (depending on the range)
long   1 => 1
medium   1 => 0,5
short   1 => 0,1

Damage   185 => max (250) min (200)

accuracy
long    0,75 => 1
medium  0,9 => 0,75
short    1 => 0,5

penetration => 1 at all distances

The current geschützwagen is a joke. High reload time, nice damage, not a good accuracy, crappy
turning speed. SO WHAT TO DO? Well lets transform it into a tank sniper!So high accuracy on long
rang, low on short range. (consider that the success of a shoot depends also on the targettables). It
has also a very high reload time of 20 on long range, which is decreasing if the target comes closer
down to 2  on short range: 2 reload on short range + 0,5 accuracy on short + this high damage???
Thats op!!! => no its not, consider the slow turning speed of the geschützwagen. If you flank or
direct charge and circle, it has no chance. (and keep the target tables in mind)


Tiger
gains Lockdown
=> + 10 Sight
=> + 1,15 damage (158 damge)
=> + 0,75 reload
Tiger is clear to weak i think most of us will agree on that. A solution would be to give him
lockdown, where he gets signifikant buffs, but loosses the ability to move. (I refuse to touch the
armor, or the gun of this unit, because it should not be a clone of the jagdpanther ot the kingtiger.)

Joint Operations Tiger gains
Aura to infantry
Range     30
accuracy 1,1
damage   1,1
Joint operations is giving additional pop to the whole team, but not even enough to bring a single
inf unit on the field and it also does not force the axis to start together and operating together.
The idea of that Tiger tank aura is that the axis combine their stuff at the tiger to launch an
attack, and so receive buffs if they act together.


King Tiger
gains jagdpanther armor
KT has a very powerful gun! but it is too slow to avoid enemy tank guns, tank rush etc. 18 pop are 3 at guns
enough to srsly injur a KT and making it impossible to charge in and to fulfill its role as a line
breaker. By changing his armor type it can fulfill its intended role as a rolling fortress, breaking
through the enemy lines, but dying if the support doesnt cover its back.


Panzerelite
ALL Infantries gain Soldier Armor (except LW and FJs)
Panzergrendiere + leader
Assault Flamer  + leader
PE inf is a joke these days, when i started to play pe they had soldier armor now they have infantry
armor. Maybe the change of the armortype will fix the weakness of pe infantry


Grenadiere gain soldier armor
Dafuq??? Grenadier having no soldier armor? 240 manpower and no soldier armor come on!


Airborne
death from Above gains mob bonuses
1,5% accuracy/men
1,5% damage/men
1%   HP/men
Come on you got to admit that top t4 airborne sucks. So give them an advantage on what they already do: blobbling. And they keep the current buffs


hellcat
HP 500 => 350
yes a hellcat is still powerful, very powerful:
it has a good at gun, a good speed,(can good buffs, see armor doc) but the BIGGEST ADVANTAGE is that
it is the ONLY TANK that can CLOAK. It should not be a tank for a direct encounter, it should be an
ambush tank => thats why it has ambush, speed and a good gun
(def middle t4 => stug gains ambush and hetzer is a t1 unlock; yeah but that are unlocks/specialiatzion and therefore gamestyle changers, u get the hellcat without investing a single unlock/ specialization point)

I am not a member of the developer team, but these changes are coded and i could easily pass them on (if you (the devs)want them).

kind regards ick


PS: Please be so gentle and comment only if you take part in the poll

and it just came to my mind, while i was fixing the form of the thread: instead of the high reload time could also an aim time introduced for the geschützwagen (4-5???)

[Hicks58]

Anybody else want to have fun with this post before I do?

[hans]

After reading:

okay i dont know the direct effect of these changes, but iam up for a test.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I got the the part where the KT is a line breaker and couldn't keep a straight face

[Hicks58]

1. The Geschitz at the moment is fine in most respects. It has one of, if not the highest, non-reward unit damage per shot. Even when it bounces, it still does 67.5 damage (Sherman/PIV damage is 87.5). Against medium and light armour, it rips them to pieces. Using it against heavy armour is a gamble, but it'll still do pretty consistent DPS due to it's high bounce damage. About the only thing needed for the Geschitz is to make rapid fire a part of the unit instead of a brought upgrade.

Your proposed changes for the Geschitz will make it pretty much useless. 20 Second reload? It'll fire one round (Which would only be capable of one-hitting standard Halftracks or jeeps) then be open to getting ass raped by anything with even the midlest AT capabilities. Bad idea.

2. The Tiger at the moment is not "Clearly weak". It's only "Clearly weak" to people that have little idea how to use it correctly. As it stands, it's a unit that needs a slight push in the right direction to be made as "Overall useful" as most other units. Something like a small increase in speed OR moving accuracy.

Your proposed change for the Tiger will hurt it. A lot. One of the community's gripes with the Tiger is that it supposedly can't take much of a beating... That's usually because it can't quite get away from a target which has started firing on it in good time. Being forced to sit still would be about as sensible as repairing in the middle of a fight. A sitting Tiger is a dead Tiger. Also, it's damage and reload are currently fine... Increasing them would be pretty broken.

Your Joint Ops suggestion wouldn't do anything for making the Tiger a better platform, and in turn it'd end up unbalancing other units around it. The Tiger would still be a Tiger, except now you've got increased damage Shrecks wandering around with it... Increasing damage on infantry is a bad idea for a list of reasons which I won't put here for the moment.

3. The King Tiger armour is fine. It's about a 20%-30% chance for an ATG to penetrate from the front as it stands. This is backed up by 2000 health. You'd have to sit there for about 30 seconds for 3 ATG's to tear you up without using AP rounds. What the KT needs is a little more accuracy vs infantry if anything. It currently has 0.4 accuracy vs infantry... Knocking that up to around 0.6 would go a long way to making it viable in all battlefield circumstances.

Your KT suggestion would make ATG's pretty pointless against it, making one of the main deterrents a no-go. The only non-reward units in the game that would consistently penetrate it would be the Firefly and the Hellcat. Bare in mind that it has 2000 health, destroying your opponents Fireflies/Hellcats would make the KT pretty much invulnerable if it had JagdPanther armour.

4. PanzerGrenadiers are fine for their survivability at the moment. They are just as survivable as Grenadiers, their issue lies with their DPS, not how long they can last for. At 215 MP, you get what you pay for. The issue with PzGrens lies in their Veteran Sergeant upgrade. It kicks their MP up to Grenadier level, but doesn't make them as competent in combat.

Your suggestion for PzGrens would outright break them. 80 Health per man and Soldier armour? It wouldn't matter that their DPS is shit, they'd out-last BAR's face to face if they had 80 HP and Soldier armour. Hell, if they were upgraded with G43's, they'd crush BAR's, for less of a price.

5. There is absolutely nothing wrong with default Grenadiers. For 240 MP, you get a squad that can put down ANY other non-doctrinal infantry without upgrades. With upgrades, it can put down any other non-doctrinal upgraded infantry too (Unless you get caught in the open by BAR suppression, but that's user error).

Your suggestion would totally break them. 80 HP, Soldier armour, Grenadier rifles. Congratulations, your 240 MP squad can now take down a 310 MP Ranger squad.

6. Airborne are fine as a platform, their problem lies in their sub-par doctrines compared to everybody elses...

Yet again, your suggestion would break the unit. 1.5 accuracy and 1.5 damage would turn their Carbines into Grenadier rifles for damage and accuracy... Which the squad would have 6 of. Not only that, you'd give Recoilless Rifles Bazooka damage, whilst being even more accurate than they already are and retaining their pretty impressive penetration rates. The extra health per man would just be the icing on the cake. Basically, RR Airborne would be able to rape tanks and infantry with ease. Their rifles would chop up the inf, their RR's chop up the tanks. Being the highest health Allied squad around, they'd probably last an absurd amount of time too.

7. Hellcats are fine as it stands. You pay a premium for a tank that is reliable, rather than a gamble (320 FU Hellcat vs 220 FU M10). If it needs anything, it's a SLIGHT reduction in penetration vs the Panther (Drop by 0.1), and a slight reduction vs Tiger armour.

Your suggestion would make the Hellcat pretty useless. No tank as expensive as the Hellcat has so little health. 350? You'd go down in 3 Panther rounds. Hell, a PIV would chop you up in a face to face fight... The M10 has 400 health.

I WAS going to just purely rip apart your suggestion, but I thought hell, why not do it in a more constructed method.

[skaffa]

A change to the Geschutz, KT and Hellcat have alrdy been set in motion. Tiger is being discussed.

[hans]

thx hicks, i was needing such a explanation. I do agree to most of that, except the hellcat. I mean okay, dont reduce the health.

but witht the hellcat theres somthing wrong. Its too strong for the price tbh.

[Hicks58]

It's 320 Fuel.

It can take on a PIV and below face to face and win.

It CANNOT stand face to face with a Panther and win. The Panther will be heavily damaged, but the Panther WILL win.

To beat a Panther face to face, the Hellcat would need help. In which case, the Panther would also have some help to hand.

Like I said:

7. Hellcats are fine as it stands. You pay a premium for a tank that is reliable, rather than a gamble (320 FU Hellcat vs 220 FU M10). If it needs anything, it's a SLIGHT reduction in penetration vs the Panther (Drop by 0.1), and a slight reduction vs Tiger armour.

[hans]

panther beats the hellcat close, but the prices of each unit arent reflecting this. Panther costs more.

[nikomas]

And the m10 is severely underused these days sadly... I think a lot people have forgotten how good two of these can be and been blinded by the hellcat

[hans]

And the m10 is severely underused these days sadly... I think a lot people have forgotten how good two of these can be and been blinded by the hellcat

i never good a m10 to vet 3 in one game against competive players. with hellcat it was possible (maybe a lot luck too). M10 is good but not close as good to use as hellcat. No cloak no mg and no sight equally.

[Hicks58]

It doesn't matter Hans.

The Panther can just go away and repair and be fully combat effective again. Allied user loses 400MP 320 FU 30 MU (Assuming 1 repair and no other upgrade).

The Axis user loses 60 MU. That's it. One repair kit in exchange for 1/3 of their tank based AT (Assuming the Allied user is runnning 3 Hellcats, rarely do people run more outside of specialised/gimmick companies).

Also, the Hellcat is purely AT (Before you say it can crush, using such an expensive unit to crush infantry is stupidity 90% of the time... The few times it is useful is when your opponent has screwed up). The Panther is heavy AT and low grade AI. Not PIV, Ostwind, Tiger or Puma levels of AI, but it CAN still do it when push comes to shove. That's included in it's cost. If the Panther's AI came down to Firefly levels (Panther 0.4, Firefly 0.2) I expect the Fuel cost would come down too.

Hell, the Firefly and Hellcat are equal Fuel/pop costs and the Firefly is only 80 MP more. The Firefly is quite a bit ahead of the Hellcat for AT performance but I'm wondering where the nerf Firefly posts are...

[Spartan_Marine88]

Hell, the Firefly and Hellcat are equal Fuel/pop costs and the Firefly is only 80 MP more. The Firefly is quite a bit ahead of the Hellcat for AT performance but I'm wondering where the nerf Firefly posts are...

Its the community Hicks, if its already been in the game for a long period of time the community is fine with it generally. As soon as a change happens, the community has a knee jerk reaction about it whether or not it makes any sense.

[Heartmann]

It doesn't matter Hans.

The Panther can just go away and repair and be fully combat effective again. Allied user loses 400MP 320 FU 30 MU (Assuming 1 repair and no other upgrade).

The Axis user loses 60 MU. That's it. One repair kit in exchange for 1/3 of their tank based AT (Assuming the Allied user is runnning 3 Hellcats, rarely do people run more outside of specialised/gimmick companies).

Also, the Hellcat is purely AT (Before you say it can crush, using such an expensive unit to crush infantry is stupidity 90% of the time... The few times it is useful is when your opponent has screwed up). The Panther is heavy AT and low grade AI. Not PIV, Ostwind, Tiger or Puma levels of AI, but it CAN still do it when push comes to shove. That's included in it's cost. If the Panther's AI came down to Firefly levels (Panther 0.4, Firefly 0.2) I expect the Fuel cost would come down too.

Hell, the Firefly and Hellcat are equal Fuel/pop costs and the Firefly is only 80 MP more. The Firefly is quite a bit ahead of the Hellcat for AT performance but I'm wondering where the nerf Firefly posts are...

Thats not entirely true, loosing the repair on such an expensive unit, is very bad, spec if u only have one repair, the panther does not have a lot of health so what you count on is being able to bounce shit, with hellcat thats a no go.

I personally consider it stupid to go head to head with hellcats much rather take Pershing. BUT Thats the role hellcats have, but it is a hard thing you need a pak or shrek and then you are pretty low on anti inf as is.

Granted you will win battle, but loosing all health and limping back for only one tank is not acceptable.

What iam saying is that for the price, pop and pool value the unit need to perform better than just taking out one tank before going to repair. NOT that it should kill all shit without taking dmg, you have to ofc micro etc.

[NightRain]

Though then again Hearty, 60 munitions for 50% of panther's cost.

[Hicks58]

Speedy beat me to it.

Losing the repair on such an expensive unit is worth it when you've made up half the unit's cost in one go.

Also, the Panther not having a lot of health? Eh? It has 742 health. Since when was that not a lot of health? FYI That's the highest health non doctrinal unit in the game.

[ick312]

HICKS U FACKING LIAR!!! DONT U HAVE A TINY BIT OF DIGNITY?


20-30% chance to penetrate KT??? R U NUTS? The truth looks like that:
KT has currently the following penetration  multiplier (Tiger armor): 0,35

Penetration table      *   Tigerarmor  = Penetration chance
long range   0,85      *   0,35          = 29, ~ 30%            (at this range the KT cant shoot)
medium       0,9        *   0,35          = 31,5%                  (at this range he can start to shoot)
short          1,25      *   0,35          = 44%

The atg deals 150 damage when it penetrates!!! and 75 when it bounces!!!
SO how many atg shoots does it take to to kill an KT? if no shoot penetrates?  27 RIGHT of a facking atg if non penetrates!

AND so we can go through your whole post, and see that u claim that everything is fine with panzergrenadier? go and play, try it. See how ur assault grens get smashed by bren troops even if u r in close combat.

u fight a panther without flanking, without hit n run, without circling??? => idiot

srsly if germans hate one thing than it is that people  lie without being ashamed.

just to make this clear: your post is an offend and a whole lie, you r writing bullshit in there that it is incredebile.

[LeoPhone]

ick, king tiger has a x0.8 rec. penetration modifier applied to it per default. similar to how doctrine buffs are applied.

[ick312]

ick, king tiger has a x0.8 rec. penetration modifier applied to it per default. similar to how doctrine buffs are applied.

ok wheres that modifier?

[Hicks58]

Leo beat me to it.

Long range pen is 0.238, which is the main range of engagement for ATG's vs the KT.

Mid range is 0.252 penetration, which is about as close as most ATG's will be getting.

Short range would be 0.35 penetration, which is a grand total of 5% outside of my rough estimate.

But please, keep raging at me. I find that watching you spew out all of your half-thought BS to be hilarious.

My analysis was being kind, actually constructive. The reality is that you are a half baked retard who doesn't have the first fucking clue about how to balance the game, or even units themselves in relation to their counterparts. I use most of your posts as comedic relief.

But I'm kinda bored, so lets tear apart the rest of your post too:

The atg deals 150 damage when it penetrates!!! and 75 when it bounces!!!
SO how many atg shoots does it take to to kill an KT? if no shoot penetrates?  27 RIGHT of a facking atg if non penetrates!

Depending upon penetration rates, and AP rounds are not used, it'll take 14-27 rounds to destroy a KT using ATG's. You would have to be a total fucking moron to have not dealt with the threat in this time.

Next point...

AND so we can go through your whole post, and see that u claim that everything is fine with panzergrenadier? go and play, try it. See how ur assault grens get smashed by bren troops even if u r in close combat.

At 215 MP, PzGrens are well priced for purpose. They become UP when you buy sprint on them, increasing their MP but their combat performance stays the same. I've had quite a bit of success with PzGrens by buying standard AT grenades, Incendiary grenades and sprint, they soft counter EVERYTHING whilst remaining cheap. Makes them great to have around any other units. If your Assault Grenadiers are getting smashed by Bren Tommy's, that's your own damned fault.

Moving on...

u fight a panther without flanking, without hit n run, without circling??? => idiot

The Panther has 47.5 range, the Hellcat has 45. At any point the Hellcat is in range, so is the Panther. Therefore, if you lose your Panther to a Hellcat, YOU have fucked up. Nobody else.

To the next one...

srsly if germans hate one thing than it is that people  lie without being ashamed.

just to make this clear: your post is an offend and a whole lie, you r writing bullshit in there that it is incredebile.

You'll find most people tend to hate liars. Good thing I've said nothing but truth.

However, you'll find a lot of people dislike those who cannot see when they are utterly and totally wrong.

I'd like to know what drugs you are taking, be them legal or not. Judging by what they are doing to you, they look fun.

EDIT: Just for you, a picture of the modifier in the RGD's:

http://i.imgur.com/3gT3g.png