SE Flammenwerfergruppe

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[ick312]

Ladies and gentlemen,

i am currently using the Flammenwerfergruppe (t3 unlock) and there is something wrong. Both allied elite infantry are t1 unlocks AND have "fire up" with which they can get away if they are pinned, after a failed attack. or with which they can overcome an enemy mg position, throw a nade and over.
Thats a t1 unlock for 310 mp + 35 munition.

Any Allied infantry is - very vital - very flexibel (cause of upgrades) - very fast (fire up/or mando smoke) - and the ability to get out of suppression.

Well the Flammenwerfergruppe doesnt have any  of these specials. We need to admit that the anti building ability on this 4 man basis is quite good, BUT NOT good enough for a t3, which costs as much MP as an allied t1 elite inf.

You might say "but it has a flammenwerfer", correct: 22,5 munition per mp 44 so 67,5 munition for all 3 mp44 => Flammenwerfer costs 52,5 munition (fair price)
Allied elite infantry  weapon upgrades cost approximatly the same (ok smg is 20 ammo more) but the performance is by far better , than the flammerwerfer squad.

Conclusion:
In fact is the Flammenwerfergruppe very fragile:
1. it needs to get close to the enemy to deal damage
2. only a 4 man squad => each snipe/tanksniper hurts
3. dont have more survivalbility than a normal PG unit (but has a higher MP price)
4. cant just run away if the unit is suppressed

if it gets close enough it has a performance above the average:
1. the flammenwerfer drives the infantry out of cover and the mp 44 do the rest
2. strong vs garnisoned infantry on a basis, better than a pio squad

So in total do the disadvantages overweight for a t3 unlock. (if u dont believe me, then try them on your own, and get your own impression)

how to solve it?:
fire up ? - No, this would end up in groundfire squads charging frontally to garnisoned MGs and burning them out, without any flanking. No
more HP? - No 80 HP is already a lot


What about this?
give it an ability, reducing speed by 1 (to 2) and reducing the received damage by 0,5. This ability prevents stupid frontal charges. But would turn them into a beast as soon as they in close combat. This improves the survivalbility, but flanking is still needed.
 

[TheIcelandicManiac]

They could solve the general problem with PE by just bringing back old Slow, the current one is so terribly situational and most often requres 2 or more squads to actually supress or pin a target unlike barsupression.
But yea, flammen grens used to be epic when you could just slow down your enemy and kill it that way.

And all that bullshit about using it to vethunt is so idiotic, Why dint they also remove AC overdrive, recon tommys, commando jeeps, Quads, m8s, jeeps, snipers, Flammen Hts, Pumas and So on?

Also, just use them in clowncars and pair them together with Healcars.
what i do when playing with them is having 2 Clowncars for every Flammen as even tough a CC dies the squad most often survives with 1-2 guys.


Or you guys could just make support grens a all doctrine PE unit again like it used to be for a short while.

[brn4meplz]

Part of the issue is that originally we had no decent place to put it.

There's nothing in the SE arsenal that warrants being a T3 currently except for(maybe)the Hummel(all other arty is lower tiers) and the napalm strike.

If we make the flame grens a lower tier we have a blank file to fill in the T3 unlock.

The solution is to buff them to a higher performance level. I think a good and reasonable start is giving them heroic crits. Sniper become less of a major threat and won't bleed your dude so easily.

Alternatively we can increase the squad size, which lowers cost ratios and on field presence.

How about 4 flamethrowers! Lol.

I do agree though. They are later and worse then allied elite infantry. The only real bonus is the availability of the infantry half track

[brn4meplz]

.
Or you guys could just make support grens a all doctrine PE unit again like it used to be for a short while.

This is already being discussed/in the works.

[Hicks58]

Giving Assault Flammens a fifth man (With MP44) could be interesting.

[Marlboroman]

the napalm strike is not t3 worthy at all tbh not if you compare it to rocket run but anyway
give flammentruppf elite/heroic armor and be done with it since their main shortcoming is suppression/being too damn fragile heroic armor helps with both of those

[ick312]

give flammentruppf elite/heroic armor and be done with it since their main shortcoming is suppression/being too damn fragile heroic armor helps with both of those

sounds like a simple solution

tbh i never thought of this, but it sounds really good

[XIIcorps]

Flamen kch wunderbar.
Pe could really use some New infantry like this

[Ahnungsloser]

Elite Armour? Heroic Armour? Extra Soldier? - WTF!

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Elite Armour? Heroic Armour? Extra Soldier? - WTF!

‼Balance‼

[Ahnungsloser]

‼Balance‼

Is that a game? Never heard from it before. 

[chefarzt]

DevEdit: Unrelated Pics removed

[Ahnungsloser]

DevEdit: Unrelated Pics removed

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Is that a game? Never heard from it before. 

Dwarf fortress and we maybe should post pics here.

Aside from that i dont really think Flammengrens need any buffs, they are weak as they pretty much are just grens but their pure DPS with 3 mp44s and a flamer is enough to rip trough any british or ami units, the only problem is that people fail to realice that similar to most units you can just focus fire them to death like all close/medium range units.
Also you can put them into HTs which aslong as you keep them away from zooks enables you to take almost instant kill most ATGs.

Ps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuL2b0WMJmo

[chefarzt]

DevEdit: Unrelated Pics removed

[chefarzt]

DevEdit: Unrelated Pics removed

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Dwarf fortress and we maybe should post pics here.

Shouldn't*

[chefarzt]

tooo late to say sorry

[ick312]

i was waiting for you idiots derailing the thread

[Uglysori]

Lol, I love SE... And I don't think I've ever made an SE co without the assault-flammen unlock but surely Elite/Heroic armor is not the overpowered solution that is needed.

I mean I forget what good T3 bottom unlocks are supposed to be like since the SE ones are pretty bad but to reiterate to the uninformed elite/heroic armor would make assault-flammen the best infantry unit in the game vs other infantry.  You have a flamethrower that does extra damage to elite armor types and 3 mp44s that do good dmg across the board at medium to close ranges plus the ability to purchase sprint (granted this Assault flammen w/ sprint are one of the most expensive infantry units in the game).  The only way any allied infantry unit would have a chance outdps an assault flammen w/ that type of armor would be if the axis player is really bad at dodging pineapples, smoke and the hope that engi flamers will crit flammen armor before the assault flammen focuses them down, or sheer numbers of infantry focus firing.  

A good middle ground solution is give them AB armor which gives them survival advantages when they are on the move, you know assaulting...  As this actually was implemented at one point and didn't seem to unbalanced I am still not sure why they were reverted back. If you want to go crazy you could try soldier armor with their current health and watch them laugh off BAR dps.  

Either way I think a change from infantry armor would be an improvement.  Elite/Heroic armor is just plain silliness.

5th man would be interesting but the resource cost for the unit is already really high.  Also it would mean you could not fit two flammens into an IHT anymore as the limit is 8 men?  

I like the idea of heroic crits like Brn suggested.  Though without testing I am not sure if that is viable as the only change for assault flammen.  I would personally like the ability to purchase med packs on assault flammens or/and possibly AB armor being brought back.