HEAT Rounds

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[hans]

its nice to attack ground the corner of a building or behind the building where a tank is sitting behind. Sometimes you even kill a low health tank although the enemy didnt see this coming lol

[Hicks58]

Putting a tank up the side of a destroyed building so it's chassis is physically pointing upwards will significantly increase the scatter range of it's attack ground. You cannot however hit close targets as it'll sail right over them unless the target happens to be massive.

[PonySlaystation]

The Stugs low survivability has other issues like how difficult it is to preserve vet or get a chance to use it's repair. Hence one of the main strongpoints of Blitzkrieg, double repair, is lost. The other issue is it's high pop, it's not significantly better than a pak or a schreck grenadier, it's more in line with a Marder or a GW which are both at 6 pop. The Marder and GW both have low pop because while they can deal good damage they lack toughness, hence they need other AT support to be effective, which is a lot like the Stug, it cannot stand on it's own. Stugs should be 6 or 7 pop and have 45 range like all other tanks.

Blitzkrieg could also use two divisions of tank destroyers, like the americans (m10, m13) and tank hunters (marder, hetzer), the Jagdpanzer IV would be excellent for that role. That way you can have the cheap Stug and the more expensive Jagdpanzer to make better use of double repair so that it will be possible to build a good tank destroyer company.

[tankmaster23]

  30,000 allied tanks lay in ruin thanks to the almighty Stug assault gun..

 Rocksitter

[TheVolskinator]

Up the StuG's AI capability to almost match that of the P4.

Add in the Jagdpanzer IV/L48 as a non-doctrinal tank destroyer, possibly boost its cannon a bit more (or leave as is, since you can just upgun it).

Boom, your StuG is now an infantry support ASSAULT GUN, and your Jagdpanzer is now a...jagdpanzer...a hunting tank...TANK DESTROYER. Before the QQ starts, who ever used the JP4. EVER? I used one, once, was unimpressed and just used StuGs. So it would make it useful to just put it in and tweak the stats until it can work over tanks. If memory serves its cannon sucks vs. infantry already (the non-upgunned version, the upgun is a copy of the panther 75mm iirc, so that's also obviously bad).

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

[NightRain]

StuG's anti inf abilities are fine. That's what the MG on the top is for. You don't buy StuGs to kill infantry, you buy them to chase away medium and light tanks from pestering your infantry.

[CrazyWR]

ya that would eliminate the p4's already small role...

[NightRain]

ya that would eliminate the p4's already small role...

Excuse me, what role?

[CrazyWR]

ask demon767

[PonySlaystation]

The Stug doesn't need better anti-infantry, it's a specialized anti-tank unit and should remain that way.

The Jagdpanzer IV is very unimpressive and it's supposed to be a reward unit.

[AmPM]

Change the STuG to 45 range. That should just about fix it, allowing it to engage medium armor first and be effective vs the M10 and M18.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

ask demon767

i miss dæmon.
his asian fetish was something to both laugh and and admire.
Also, Heat rounds in general is a pretty mediocre unit but with the Panzer ace buff it enables enables tigers and panthers to counter pershings and p4s to be able to stand up to shermans while still be able to fight infantry relyably, give it a try before you trow shit at it as its way better than going with the dual t3.

[AmPM]

i miss dæmon.
his asian fetish was something to both laugh and and admire.
Also, Heat rounds in general is a pretty mediocre unit but with the Panzer ace buff it enables enables tigers and panthers to counter pershings and p4s to be able to stand up to shermans while still be able to fight infantry relyably, give it a try before you trow shit at it as its way better than going with the dual t3.

It's the same as the old dual T3....all that got strapped to it was an increase crit rate and the stupid MG buff..

But congrats! I'm glad it allows more expensive units with a T3 and T4 to counter Vanilla Upgun Shermans and for the more expensive Tiger/Panther to fight Pershings!

It's awesome that you need to have so much invested to make the P4 worthwhile vs anything other than infantry and light armor. Or that the Tiger needs Panzer Aces to have any reasonable accuracy.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

You know what?
you are completly correct, How idiotic is that the british need to get ultra decription to be able to adequitely fight stormtroopers and the Commandos need the top t4 to be remotely effective?
Or tankhunters to get the top t4 to be able to fight all the Reward units?
Or Infantry doctrine needing triple bar rifles to be able to Fight off hoards of oakleaf KCH?

Its shitty balance, You would think that someone like you would be used to it but alas today i found out that you aren't.

[AmPM]

You know what?
you are completly correct, How idiotic is that the british need to get ultra decription to be able to adequitely fight stormtroopers and the Commandos need the top t4 to be remotely effective?
Or tankhunters to get the top t4 to be able to fight all the Reward units?
Or Infantry doctrine needing triple bar rifles to be able to Fight off hoards of oakleaf KCH?

Its shitty balance, You would think that someone like you would be used to it but alas today i found out that you aren't.

Recon Tommies in a Bren make excellent recon and can fight...no doctrine required.

Commando's...see Tommy Recons, Jeeps, Brens

Infantry doctrine needs a single Sherman to do that, no doc required.

I don't care if my P4 loses to a Sherman as long as the price reflects that, or that the Pershing is better or equivalent to a Tiger as long as price reflects that.

The arguement that a Doctrine is good because it allows your more expensive unit to fight more effective cheaper units is stupid.

[CrazyWR]

tankhunters top t4 to fight what reward units?  that makes no sense.

[AmPM]

There is a whole trail of fail doctrines. Let's just put it that way.

They intradoctrinal balance is terrible, and the interdoctrine balance is bad as well. Power and usefullness varies hugely between abilties of the same Tier, with some T3's being more useful than situational or plain useless T4's.

But that argument is not what this thread is about.

It's about HEAT, and how bad it is as a choice for a T4. I'm going to put it through it's paces, mainly because I enjoy the vehicle gameplay more than the Infantry gameplay. Well, that and Terror doesn't get extra repairs at all so their tanks are praying not to hit a mine.

[Mysthalin]

AmPm, you are purposefully misinterpreting Icelandic.

His point was that HEAT rounds allows these units to COUNTER their equivalents (which are, in all cases, only very marginally cheaper), rather than have a close fight (which is already generally skewed in the more expensive unit's favor).


I also don't see why exactly you're complaining about the P4 having a hard time against an upgun sherman. The Upgun for the sherman is of equal price to the P4 and it is a specialist upgrade that buffs one thing and one thing only - the Shermans ability to fight tanks. The skirts for the P4 is a mostly specialist upgrade that helps it against infantry, with a generalist application vs tanks (0.9 rec dmg). It'd be like losing your shit over your quad losing to vanilla hotchkisses (Omg, it's an upgrade to the halftrack that makes it about as expensive! It should have a decent chance of wining! Fix it NOW!).

[hans]

hey, dont throw the p4 in this discussion. If theres a unit you cant fairly complain about, its the p4. "srsly"

[AmPM]

AmPm, you are purposefully misinterpreting Icelandic.

His point was that HEAT rounds allows these units to COUNTER their equivalents (which are, in all cases, only very marginally cheaper), rather than have a close fight (which is already generally skewed in the more expensive unit's favor).


I also don't see why exactly you're complaining about the P4 having a hard time against an upgun sherman. The Upgun for the sherman is of equal price to the P4 and it is a specialist upgrade that buffs one thing and one thing only - the Shermans ability to fight tanks. The skirts for the P4 is a mostly specialist upgrade that helps it against infantry, with a generalist application vs tanks (0.9 rec dmg). It'd be like losing your shit over your quad losing to vanilla hotchkisses (Omg, it's an upgrade to the halftrack that makes it about as expensive! It should have a decent chance of wining! Fix it NOW!).

Where did I say I had a problem with the P4 losing to a Sherman? My complaint was that they put in a doctrine ability that is effective for a low number of units and call it a T4.

And P4 vs Upgun is not even close, and the Sherman 76mm is not exactly bad at AI, in fact, it's still pretty damned good at it.

Break down the math for P4 + HEAT vs Sherman 76mm Myst, I know you want to and it would be interesting. Both units serve the same function, but I have always found the Sherman to be better at being a multi purpose medium tank.