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[nikomas]

I'd like to point something out here, technically the no doctrines is a "New/Different" thing. You can't actuall tell if this will retain people better unless you let it stay like this for a month or a few, my guess is that it wont be much different from the past.

Personally I'm all for doctrines and reward units, for me they make a lot of playstyles viable that are quite frankly boring otherwise. Playing a mechanized halftrack/sherman company is not nearly the same without the doctrines to support it, while other doctrines play pretty much exactly the same even without doctrines (Blitz/Mando).

I don't honestly thing that reward units are that common, if they were we'd see entire companies made of reward units and that happens very rarely and only if someone dumps most of their rewards into one company. We've said in the past that they should be balanced agains't regular units and that being a reward unit is no excuse for being outright overpowered, well, there is no real reason they have to be super rare if that's the policy.

imo ofc.

[tank130]

I'd like to point something out here, technically the no doctrines is a "New/Different" thing. You can't actuall tell if this will retain people better unless you let it stay like this for a month or a few, my guess is that it wont be much different from the past.

Who said don't bring them back?

I said do not bring them back in their current form, but I did not say no to doctrines.

I also said we should be resetting it more often - like every 6 weeks or maybe 8.
Then you get the meta game changing from no docs, to some docs, to all docs, back to no docs. The game would completely change every 6 to 8 weeks.

Or we just keep all the docs all the time for ever like we did for the past year and watch the game stagnate and die. Just like it will if we keep docs out forever. Rotation is the key.

[nikomas]

A lot of people actually liked them in their current form thou, even if it is a bit broken as deadbolt posted above it does allow for a lot more varied playstyles, imho it was a lot of fun. I swapped my builds regularly (using all 12 slots) and often deleted coys to try other things. What you can do without doctrines while remanining compeditive is way more limited and it's already getting a bit old for me.

As for a lot of resets... Whats the point of "Persistence" if we're resetting every 6th week? For people who only have time to play a few games per week vet might not as well exist anymore at that point. I think this was the point Gray was trying to make by the way. This is actually a pretty big point for a lot of people last I checked. What's the point of having any attachment to your units if you know they'll be wiped in the near future? It takes a LOT of games to vet up a heavy tank for example, I don't think anyone aside from someone out to prove something would bother trying if they knew a wipe would eliminiate it in the near future.

This is pretty much the main selling point of this mod in marketing and spirit and as far as I'm aware, while some players don't necaccerily stick around for this aspect it's still a big part of it for some players, reseting often would go completly against that idea.

[chefarzt]

Its not about resetting more often, its about faster war progress. Mooar slippery slope ftw.
Also maybe tie accounts to one side and make sure new accounts can only join the one with less players.
AAAnd make leveling up dependent on success, not on grind.
To even it out, there should be dedicated maps for each sector. Going from balanced to imba, the further one side advances, the more fucked up it gets for attackers, making the last sector a real bossfight. Im thinking Deadbolt for ally and Ghorkster for axis maps here, with skaffa maps for the starting phase.
 

[aeroblade56]

Niko proves point.

I have played my mandos for 2 weeks and i just now got my first vet 3 mando.

[XIIcorps]

12 months since major patch, still trying to get vet 3 avre and mk6

[GrayWolf]

12 months since major patch, still trying to get vet 3 avre and mk6

Good luck. I had one AVRE vet 3 with mid t4 ;P nothing special tbh

[XIIcorps]

Good luck. I had one AVRE vet 3 with mid t4 ;P nothing special tbh

cept you know it fires every 60s

[Scotzmen]

ever so tempted to tear out the gun of the m7 priest and pawn it off as the new roo to devs

[deadbolt]

ever so tempted to tear out the gun of the m7 priest and pawn it off as the new roo to devs

auw ye and leave dat mg, hrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[XIIcorps]

ever so tempted to tear out the gun of the m7 priest and pawn it off as the new roo to devs

do it sgt scotz, its the highland way

[tank130]

Nikomas......... why you no read posts before responding...........

What you can do without doctrines while remaining competitive is way more limited and it's already getting a bit old for me.
 

Isn’t that what I said 3 hours before you made this post?

I would also say that the past 5-6 years of history of EiRR has proven, without a doubt, that the players get tired of shit very quickly and want new content to continue playing.

As for a lot of resets... Whats the point of "Persistence" if we're resetting every 6th week? For people who only have time to play a few games per week vet might not as well exist anymore at that point. I think this was the point Gray was trying to make by the way. This is actually a pretty big point for a lot of people last I checked. What's the point of having any attachment to your units if you know they'll be wiped in the near future? It takes a LOT of games to vet up a heavy tank for example, I don't think anyone aside from someone out to prove something would bother trying if they knew a wipe would eliminiate it in the near future.

This is pretty much the main selling point of this mod in marketing and spirit and as far as I'm aware, while some players don't necaccerily stick around for this aspect it's still a big part of it for some players, reseting often would go completly against that idea.

Ya.... that's why I said this 3 hours before you made your post.....lol

The compromise may be just resetting more often. If we can set it up that docs and reward units are wiped with each war rest, but vet retained?

There seems to be some confusion in regards to what I have suggested.Here's what I suggest:

1.) We do not bring back doctrines in their current broken state. We fix them, but preferably bring them back in the new (pick & choose) method we wanted to do for EiR2

2.) Have the Warmap become more fluent and reset more often. Resetting doctrines and Reward units, but RETAINING VET

3.) Have reward units actually be a reward unit. Not just a luck of the draw lottery win like it is now.

I don't honestly thing that reward units are that common

I call bullshit!!  Count up how many reward units you have in all your companies right now. Then add how many reward unit cards you have in your profiles right now.

Ya...... exactly. Reward units should not be more then 1 or 2 per person unless they pulled some seriously awesome game work to earn them. Right now people get reward units just for showing up in a game.............kind of a stupid mechanic IMO.

We should stop calling them reward units and just call them "Random, pull some luck out of your ass" units.

[chefarzt]

Its not about resetting more often, its about faster war progress. Mooar slippery slope ftw.
Also maybe tie accounts to one side and make sure new accounts can only join the one with less players.
AAAnd make leveling up dependent on success, not on grind.
To even it out, there should be dedicated maps for each sector. Going from balanced to imba, the further one side advances, the more fucked up it gets for attackers, making the last sector a real bossfight. Im thinking Deadbolt for ally and Ghorkster for axis maps here, with skaffa maps for the starting phase.
Lower vet requierements.
Change the way u cap sectors, first faction that reaches x number of wins caps it.Simple as that.
To sum it up:
 Make it more arcadey, make it more fast paced, make it more rewarding.

[nikomas]

We should stop calling them reward units and just call them "Random, pull some luck out of your ass" units.

Fair enough, there are quite a few of them around I suppose. If you have a problem with the name then change that, I don't see the units themselves being a problem however. Variety is nice, most agree on that. If our stance on reward units is that they should be balanced properly and for cost, in other words, them being extras is no excuse for being OP then there is no inherent issue with them being less than super rare is there?

Fact of the matter is that most "Reward" units could never, ever be classified as some "Big awesome reward" due to their nature. The vast majority are just interesting variations of current vehicles and troops. What can I say, I like variety and I do not think "Less is More". If we can get more units into the game while keeping them balanced then I'm all for that and the reward system is the only way to do that in the current setup.


The only vehicles that could classify as "Reward" in the definition you're using would be the Tiger Ace/SP/Maus and large, beastly tanks like that. I mean, "Congratz, you get this ultra rare M3-Lee" doesn't really have the same ring to it.


Also, every time the warmap resets and we lose our doctrine unlocks we also lost the units unlocked. This means the units that were mentioned here (Churchill, Tiger, Commandoes) would all get wiped under the current launcher structure, otherwise I'd be cool with units retaining since I admittedly missed that post. Granted, a new launcher could be adjusted to fix this but in it's current state that's what will happen.

[tank130]

Its not about resetting more often, its about faster war progress. Mooar slippery slope ftw.

Faster War progress to what? What is progressing? What is the end of the War or progress, what happens when you reach the end?

If the war is progressing faster, wouldn't that also mean it will end faster? In other words....... the war resetting more often?

Also maybe tie accounts to one side and make sure new accounts can only join the one with less players.

That would be awesome, but our player base would never be large enough to make it work.

AAAnd make leveling up dependent on success, not on grind.

I agree to some of this, but not all. Reward units should be dependent on success - either on the Warmap or in game, or possibly a bit of both. The details would have to be fine tuned.

Doctrines or advantages - not so much. The problem we had with that in the past created stack battles and people refusing to play with lower skill players - way worse then it is right now. Right now if you play with a shitty player (tank130) then you just put your vet in holding but still get a game in. If loosing that game messed with your teching, then less games will be played.
That is why we changed it with the Warmap mechanic. It was a very big problem in the past.

To even it out, there should be dedicated maps for each sector. Going from balanced to imba, the further one side advances, the more fucked up it gets for attackers, making the last sector a real bossfight. Im thinking Deadbolt for ally and Ghorkster for axis maps here, with skaffa maps for the starting phase.

I have been pushing for maps tied to games for a long time. The problem is we have no way of controlling the lobby once you get into CoH. Then the whole bitch fest about maps becomes a problem.

Lower vet requirements.

I agree for most units. Or, if the requirements are high, make the reward well worth it.
I have preached for years that vet should be more like our current top tier doc abilities.

Change the way u cap sectors, x number of wins caps it.Simple as that.

It is that way now. Attacking a sector diminishes its defense point if you win a match.

[Hicks58]

I have been pushing for maps tied to games for a long time. The problem is we have no way of controlling the lobby once you get into CoH. Then the whole bitch fest about maps becomes a problem.

Zero unit exp reporting if you don't play the designated map, and no warmap reporting either.

I agree for most units. Or, if the requirements are high, make the reward well worth it.
I have preached for years that vet should be more like our current top tier doc abilities.

I'd happily slash exp requirements by 25%-50%. Most of the good shit happens at vet 2-3, with most of it being perfectly controllable. It's currently a ball-ache getting most things up to any kind of reasonable vet due to how long it takes and how easily you can lose it.

Even if you reduced exp requirements by 50%, it'd still take quite a while to get most units to vet 4-5 (Something we should take a look at again by the way).

[tank130]

Also, every time the warmap resets and we lose our doctrine unlocks we also lost the units unlocked. This means the units that were mentioned here (Churchill, Tiger, Commandoes) would all get wiped under the current launcher structure, otherwise I'd be cool with units retaining since I admittedly missed that post.

So what do you think is a viable solution? Should we just give out all doc abilities forever with no grind? Like now you just create a new company and you have full access to all doc unlocks.

Whats the point of even having our tier system then? Why do you have to unlock T1 to unlock T2

If that is not the case, the how often do you think there should be a complete wipe? Every decade or so, or once a year.......or do you think it should just be endless docs, endless units, endless warmap.

[tank130]

Zero unit exp reporting if you don't play the designated map, and no warmap reporting either.

I don't know if there is a way to report which map is used, but Xeo would be the man to find a way if it is possible.
We would still have the issue of QQ about maps in general. Players would just refuse to play sectors on the warmap that had maps they didn't like.

Even if you reduced exp requirements by 50%, it'd still take quite a while to get most units to vet 4-5 (Something we should take a look at again by the way).

The whole vet 4/5 thing was a colossal waste of resources and time IMO, but whatever. That time could have been better spent building better doctrines with a result that would have had more impact for more people.

[chefarzt]

Tank theres a difference between resetting or one side winning.
Ofc it ends in a reset.
The difference is the feel of having achieved something.

Thats just brainstorming, hand out reward units ,give fancy coins whatever.
Fact is u got to deliver the feeling of progess, and when i sad x number of wins im thinking 50 for slow and 10 for arcade.

[tank130]

Tank theres a difference between resetting or one side winning.
Ofc it ends in a reset.
The difference is the feel of having achieved something.

Thats just brainstorming, hand out reward units ,give fancy coins whatever.
Fact is u got to deliver the feeling of progess, and when i sad x number of wins im thinking 50 for slow and 10 for arcade.

I think you have misunderstood what I mean by a reset. I am not suggesting we just randomly reset just for the hell of it. I meant tied to the warmap and a win. I realize I never said that straight out like that, so my bad. That is what I have been trying to say all along.

Make the warmap progress faster, resulting in it ending faster, resulting in a wipe of everything except vet. If it wipes out vetted doctrine unlocks, then tough shit. War is over, pick new doctrine or train new troops.

The alternative is no wipe and that results in the dead, stagnate shit we have right now that no one wants to play.