[PE] FJs

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[TheWindCriesMary]

Give them their cloak and a small improvement to their survivability and that should be a sufficient moderate step in the right direction.

After that you can re-evaluate in a few weeks to see if they need another small adjustment.

[chefarzt]

Do they still do like 3 secs of cease fire after uncloaking?(from moving cloak)
Scrap that, just saw it was removed.

[Smokaz]

Their old cloak was flawed - you could move in and get cloak while fighting.

Make a new cloak. High payoff, high cooldown.

[nikomas]

Their old cloak was flawed - you could move in and get cloak while fighting.

That was the entire point of the unit, they were designed to cloak and fight from cover like that. Haven't we been discussing how shit they are without it?

They're not ambush units, they're cover hoppers.

[Smokaz]

That cloak also felt worse on the special FSJ weapon fg42 than g43s/kar98s.

[nikomas]

That cloak also felt worse on the special FSJ weapon fg42 than g43s/kar98s.

That was also by design, when you get the assault weapon that is the FG you lose some of the ambush benifits for moar dakka.

The FG42 is a really good gun and that's not the problem, the problem is that basic FJ's are junk.

[TheWindCriesMary]

They're not ambush units, they're cover hoppers.

This is what some guys aren't understanding. Well put.

Smokaz, this is where you missed the mark in your understanding of FJs: they are not defensive units that sit around on your nice little defensive line all day waiting for an assault from the enemy.

THEY assault by jumping from cover to cover, aggressively advancing on the enemy from green to green/yellow to yellow. They harass and flank, plaguing the enemy from cover and when an opening presents itself they move in, hop into a firing position within cover, and go to town.

They are supposed to be an active, micro intensive unit. Not a "park here and wait" unit. There is absolutely no reason to have a parachuting "park and wait" unit that only works on the defensive. There IS reason to have a parachuting "move, cover, shoot.... move, cover, shoot fire platform base unit."

[NightRain]

What was basically described there was every infantry squad in the game with or without ambush bonus. Cover to cover is pretty normal way to attack and does not make failschrims any more special in that regard. What they get is only a ambush bonus which is what. 25% more acc and damage for short time?

[Smokaz]

I realize they were used like this, but as far as bland and uinteresting ideas go, you all take the cake.. and the paradrop was added to them since their vcoh manner of deployment cant work reliably in eirr, so anything based on how they arrive on the map, is only interesting to the degree that it has to be kept no matter waht.

Moving from cover to cover is something all players do with their assault inf..  my suggestion actually opens up to conforming them to rigid different elite infantry role, you could have them have limited move in cover like the FSJ sniper to redeploy.. but their identity weapon (fg42) did not cater to the current ambush... OR THE OLD.. instead it was given fagshit like bar supression.

Don't forget the rest of the doctrine Wind! We can't remake the whole thign.. we got the construction of natural cover like trees and logs.. and the possibility to have infantry that are great defensively in cover, but easy to kill outside in the open.

Don't forget you have assault grens getting buffed in this doctrine, if you want to move around from cover to cover, throw a incendary.. why the fuck not use them? You'd save unlocks... you'd save munitions.. guess I am idiot for wanting FSJ to a bit more interesting than reskinned assautl grens with bars?

When you added riflenades to FSJ as a option it gave them a lot of flavour, it also has some good buffs for it, but riflenades in EIRR maybe aren't made to be...

I'm arguing what their role should be, and I'm a strong loyalist to the diversification of the elite inf, rangers are strongest overall but a little too expensive to be relied on en masse for AI, same as with a 4 man KCh company, they will draw too much resources even if you can get 20 kills on them. AB doesn't need much explanation, they are great right now both ab riflemen and ab themself.

There's no secret either that Commandos as a base unit, also falls horribly short...

The whole idea of the tradeoff is for it be immensively strong..

Imagine the following situation, you have 2 fsj squads in cover with a new longer CD ambush that you ahve to activate, a vet 3 rifle walks by, POOF its gone, now you have to wait 2-3 minutes for that kind of offensive power, in the meantime you redeploy to some other cover where you get good received accuracy and received damage modifiers so that grenades and tanks and shit will not wear u down so fast, and they actually have to think about dislodging you with a mortar, a flamethrower tank, a quad or a 30 cal... but if the battle turns on them, they have to be careful, since they are not good in the open, and you'll need to have assault grens for open cover assaults.

[chefarzt]

So before i get everything wrong here. The ambush benefits where gimped?

[TheWindCriesMary]

What was basically described there was every infantry squad in the game with or without ambush bonus. Cover to cover is pretty normal way to attack and does not make failschrims any more special in that regard. What they get is only a ambush bonus which is what. 25% more acc and damage for short time?

Not at all true.

Ask yourself: is the role of Assault grens to cover hope and engage the enemy from opportunie firing positions at mid-long range?

Is that the role of KCH? Is that the role of thompson rangers? Is it the role of sten commandos?

If your answer to any of those was "yes" you are not using those units right.

FJ's are meant to be cover hopping fire platform units. They move quickly between cover, set up a base of fire and rain down dakka.

[Smokaz]

I understand you will gnaw and gnaw onto this point now with cover hopping, but I hope the rest of the posters will see through it, it's pure fluff.

1.  Ambush never catered to fg42
2.  Fg42 shit on the move son
3.  "Long-mid.." BULLSHIT! FG42 was never good at long range, its PURE fantasy.

I'm out now, because I know you don't back off, I don't need you to see my point its more than good enough on its own, and its the only suggested idea thats not a bland copout and actually deals with the unit as is.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Post

I think you are missing the mark again. FJs aren't meant to be cover hopping close-quarter fighters. Assault grens and kch are meant to run up to the enemy squad and fight them face to face. FJs on the other hand are meant to hope from cover to cover until they get into a great position to lay down a withering hail of fire.

The problem is they're too fragile to fulfill that role at the moment. They can do everything right (ie move from cover to cover to get into a great firing position) and then watch as other doctrinal infantry walks up to them, lobs a nade and kills 25-75% of the squad while taking only minor damage. Hell even rifles with smoke nades can do it.

They are medium range cover hoppers. There's really not many other units that fit that category well and certainly none that are as resource and doctrine unlock/abillity intensive as Fjs for such a muted result.

[chefarzt]

Their role is/was to  fuck over anything attacking ur mortar hts and mobile at.

[TheWindCriesMary]

1.  Ambush never catered to fg42
2.  Fg42 shit on the move son
3.  "Long-mid.." BULLSHIT! FG42 was never good at long range, its PURE fantasy.

1. Ambush helped FG 42s. Was it 100% optimized to them? No. There is a big difference.

2. Has anyone argued otherwise? No. Hence why you've seen people say over and over that their main role was to move from firing position to firing position, get set up into a nice spot and THEN lay down a withering hail of fire. I can't help you if you are arguing against a scarecrow.

3. Mid with FG 42s and long with rifles. Stop suggesting that the only way FJs should be designed is with FG42s exclusively in mind. That is one of several weapon upgrades they can get. If FJs were meant to be balanced only with FG42's in mind they would come standard with them. They should be functional as vanilla infantry as well, if not super great. Anyone who has tried to use vanilla FJ's at the moment can tell you why their survivability and firepower is not fitting with their intended role.

[Smokaz]

Still arguing role here. Maybe they dont even need to be good with kar98s?

If you add a non cover related offensive bonus, you just make another axis infantry unit that shits all over riflemen etc in the open. How dull.

A defensive bonus in cover + a offensive boost from cloak on cooldown will allow them for actual hopping through cover (if it exists) to back off after delivering a burst damage ability on cooldown.  A big received damage modifier would add strategic depth to them since tank shells would not kill a squad member in one shot, and the grenades would be less effective.

Hell, we could even remove sprint to further suggest that they would need some bushes to retreat in. You know, actual depth to the unit, instead of just lolcharge? Lolhop?

[TheWindCriesMary]

If you add a non cover related offensive bonus, you just make another axis infantry unit that shits all over riflemen etc in the open. How dull.

I just can't understand where anyone has argued in favour of giving them non-cover related offensive bonuses.

Who are you even replying to? Who are you arguing with?! Is it someone whose posts I can't see?


I want them to be more viable at their key role: doing damage and being survivable in cover while making them less fragile so that they can get into that cover without being reduced to 25-50% squad size by the time they do.  

That's their role and that's what they need to be able to do effectively.

[Hicks58]

I go away for 10 hours and the thread is 4 pages long, lol.

[nikomas]

I play a single game and it gets 1 page longer 

I still argue for returning their old combat cloak and going from there.

[Heartmann]

Ive read all the posts sorry for not responding sooner in middle of moving, ill give detailss points on fjs doc