[US] M10 compared against Stug

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[Hicks58]

Historically, the Panther is a medium tank. For the purposes of CoH, it's a heavy TD.

Price, health, gun damage, gun range, accel/decel, infantry accuracy all point at the Panther being classified in CoH as a heavy TD. Kind of like what you'd expect to happen if you dumped another 250 FU into making the M10 better.

At the very least, the price and stats of the Panther point well and truly above being a medium, and classifying it as such wouldn't make much sense.

[tank130]

Thanks Hicks, I should have known that...................oh wait..............

[TheWindCriesMary]

Historically, the Panther is a medium tank. For the purposes of CoH, it's a heavy TD.

It's not though Hicks, it performs exactly as its historical counterpart. It was designed to be a slightly heavier P4 with better armour (primarily due to sloping), a gun that (with its standard armanent) was weak against infantry but fantastic vs tanks and vehicles, faster and was better at engaging tanks at range (it's primary impetus was being able to effectively respond to the superior armour the russians were fielding in the early stages of the invasion of Russia). If you were to put all those characteristics into the game you'd end up with the Panther.

I think you make a great point that in the game the Panther functions in a similar role to an M10 or a TD, but it also did that in the real war as that's how it was designed. It was a medium tank specialized to fight enemy armour.

That's why (I believe) CoH and CoH2 designate it under it's real war class: Medium Tank.

[Hicks58]

It's historical definition is correct.

If you compare it's performance in CoH vs it's historical definition, Medium tank would still apply.

But in the context of CoH, and CoH alone, whereby different types of performance dictate unit type, it's a heavy TD. Otherwise, we'd be calling the Firefly a medium tank as it was historically speaking, but in CoH it's well and truly a TD.

CoH2 is another discussion altogether.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I think the reason it's still classed in CoH as a Medium Tank is that it has anti infantry capability. Especially with the Mg52 mount.

If you add in the buffs some of the doctrines give, it generates even more well-rounded capability. In fact it's not uncommon right now to see Panthers with the extra accuracy and heat of bottom Blitz t4 racking up pretty decent inf and support weapon kills. The Firefly rarely if ever manages anything close to that consistency.

In EiR as well, the Panther functions as a main battle tank versus a tank you only use to engage enemy vehicles. It certainly excels in that area but is not dedicated to it. A firefly on the other hand is only useful reliably versus vehicle targets.

Again I can appreciate there is a lot of grey on the issue, but I think where there is doubt the safer option is to stick with the existing designation of the unit.

[XIIcorps]

Hetzers and stugs get mg42s also does this change their designations from TD's to Medium tanks ?.

The exterior mounted mgs do nothing do change designations and only suppliment an area the particular unit may be deficient in.

[Hicks58]

It doesn't perform as CoH's classification of a medium, and that's the ability to take on infantry and vehicles equally (0.4 acc vs inf isn't taking on inf as well as it does tanks, not even close, and the Panther MG42 is pretty underwhelming without doctrines) whilst being in the mid tier fuel price range.

I refuse to classify it as a medium as CoH refers to them as things like the PzIV, Sherman and Cromwell... The Panther just has no place amongst them, it's much more suited up with the likes of the Pershing and Tiger for classification ranges, but it falls short of being a true heavy due to the pants AI in comparison to an actual heavy.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I think that is very subjective. Namely CoH having its classification of a medium be that they have to take on infantry and vehicles equally. A sherman definitely doesn't fit that criteria nor does a cromwell.

Rather it seems more accurate that there are anti-inf specialized mediums (Sherman, Crom, P4) and anti tank specialized mediums (Panther) where the Panther is a bit more effective at juggling the two (but much less effective than a sherm at anti inf) than a Firefly.

[Hicks58]

Just take a peak into the statistics of the unit Wind.

You'll find the Panther has much more in common with heavies than it does with mediums, the only thing that isn't heavy quality is it's AI accuracy, and that's it.

I'd list it all out but I'm sure you know how to crack open Corsix, and it's 4:30 AM.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I don't think were in disagreement about what the statistics are (we both described the role the tank plays and chose, for different reasons, to classify it differently). I think we're in disagreement about whether that means it becomes a separate class from it's actual class.

I think given that the tank was a medium and performs basically exactly the same role it did in the war (and was designed to do), it's well within its traditional classification.

You make some good points about why you feel it serves as a heavy in CoH.

I think there's strong cases on both sides.

[Hicks58]

The only concrete reason I'm so stubbornly refusing to call it a medium is because simply put, we come to the conclusion long ago that realism/historical accuracy has no place in CoH/EiRR.

There's a list of units that are all out of whack for what they should be, so it's easier (And more productive for sharp identification) to call them as they perform/are priced.

The Panther performs and is priced more like a heavy TD than a medium.

But meh, it's subjective and could be argued for hours.

[TheWindCriesMary]

The only concrete reason I'm so stubbornly refusing to call it a medium is because simply put, we come to the conclusion long ago that realism/historical accuracy has no place in CoH/EiRR.

And I agree with you on that, it's just that in Coh/EiRR the Panther behaves exactly the same way it actually did (role wise). That argument is helpful whenever a unit in the game detours from its historical function and characteristics but here we actually have a case where the two are basically identical. CoH actually got it right!

Agreed though there is subjective merit to both viewpoints.

[XIIcorps]

And I agree with you on that, it's just that in Coh/EiRR the Panther behaves exactly the same way it actually did (role wise). That argument is helpful whenever a unit in the game detours from its historical function and characteristics but here we actually have a case where the two are basically identical. CoH actually got it right!

Agreed though there is subjective merit to both viewpoints.

The M10 also functions exactly as its Historical counterpart did abeit better due to not having horrific hand cranked turrets.

Lets once and for all forget all we know about units historic roles and capabilities and focus soley on how they perform in an RTS Environment.

[nikomas]

Oh for the love of...

The panther is neither a heavy or medium tank, for the purpouse of EiRR it is and has been a Tank Destroyer, while it can snipe the occasional man that's not what you buy it for. Whatever else you want to class it as does not matter, or are you going to start calling the Firefly a medium tank to just to confuse things?

It's so simple isn't it? If it has the role, stats and gun of a TD then it's a TD.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Again I think there's room for multiple interpretations, but many, many players in the mod purchase the Panther as a main line battle tank. Think Heartmann, Skaffa, Shab even myself all who have reputations for using the Panther primarily in this role. Aka. Tanks that poke in and out of the front line supporting infantry pushes and sniping infantry, support weapons and enemy vehicles while occasionally leading breakthroughs or using smoke cannisters and blitz to cover infantry advances and lead assaults on positions.

That is the role of a main line battle. Aka a medium tank with a bit more meat on its bones to soak up damage on the front line effectively and go head to head with both enemy AT and vehicles.

Or to rely on someone who accurately appraised the unit more eloquently then I have just now:

Isnt the panther and later war tanks like those more akin to modern MBT's?
Anyway, the panther is a Medium-Heavy Tank

Truer words never spoken.

[nikomas]

In real life sure, in CoH it is not, two different things.
Now lets stop breaking the balance discussion rules, I'm done here.

[PonySlaystation]

A tank destroyer is a big cannon wrapped on a cheap chassi, like a self propelled gun, intended to destroy tanks and not to withstand a lot of damage. Examples: Marder, Firefly, M10. The Panther is a tank, a medium tank. It applies to EIR too. It's not a realism argument, it's a simple definition of the units.

[TheWindCriesMary]

@Niko: We're not talking about in real life though. Heartmann, Shab, Myself, Skaffa (and many, many other players) -- we never used Panthers in real life as MBTs because we weren't alive back then and we certainly weren't tank drivers. We used them in EiR. That's what I'm talking about here. Realism arguments haven't been raised by me once here (aka. the panther's balance should be changed to reflect the real world). That isn't necessary, the panther's EiR role already reflects the real world (as accurately as possible).

Anyway, again it basically comes down to preference on how an individual employs them. I think there's latitude for the Panther to serve a MBT and tank destroyer role (like it does currently) rather than being restricted to just one (which it currently is not). That's why I think it'd be tremendously unfortunate if its anti-inf capabilities were curtailed as right now they can be surprisingly decent (like the JP) at fulfilling both while being great for supporting pushes and soaking damage on the front line.

A tank destroyer is a big cannon wrapped on a cheap chassi, like a self propelled gun, intended to destroy tanks and not to withstand a lot of damage. Examples: Marder, Firefly, M10. The Panther is a tank, a medium tank. It applies to EIR too. It's not a realism argument, it's a simple definition of the units.

Basically this. Well put.


Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I think the Stug could probably use a small boost to bring it up to be a little more comparable to the M10 (arguably one of the best, most cost effective tanks in the game).

Ideally perhaps a bit more of a damage increase vs specific allied armoured targets?

[XIIcorps]

I think you'll find the stug has some of the best damage modifiers in the game vs everything short of a pershing/Sp.

Even then HEAT goes a long way for those wishing to use stug "spam".

[GORKHALI]

I think you'll find the stug has some of the best damage modifiers in the game vs everything short of a pershing/Sp.

Even then HEAT goes a long way for those wishing to use stug "spam".

stug will die in 3 or 4 shots form pershing or sp , they r only good vs mmedium tanks even with heat rounds they have hard time penetreating pershing.