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Author Topic: Commandos and AB  (Read 16165 times)
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Scotzmen Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2035


« on: May 23, 2015, 06:46:28 pm »

Alright ladies, gimmie your best.

I need you to design either the AB or Commandos doctrine. As both are lacking in many areas and have no synergy at all. Nothing like the axis doctrines. Try to avoid things that need scar coding. Feel free to use some of the abilities in the previous doctrines, as most of the AB stuff can be easily re-used!

Maybe, my request, was to subtle for people to understand guidlines. This is a suggestion thread. Not a discussion thread.

Should you feel that you need to discuss someone else doctrine design, please make a thread about it. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 07:06:33 pm by Scotzmen » Logged
shockcoil Offline
griefer & spammer
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1566



« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2015, 06:47:24 pm »

For real? I'll design both doctrines for you if you promise you'll use it. I'll be sensible. Promise
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aeroblade56 Offline
Development
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Posts: 3871



« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2015, 06:49:54 pm »

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-5M8J5k-l0SQceyFDqVnLaRsTYS8Ixge88nXyu9K-Vc/edit?usp=sharing
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You are welcome to your opinion.

You are also welcome to be wrong.
Scotzmen Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2035


« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2015, 06:50:46 pm »

For real? I'll design both doctrines for you if you promise you'll use it. I'll be sensible. Promise

Can't promise anything, but if it's sensible, it's highly possible.
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Hobomancer Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 109


« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2015, 06:53:21 pm »


You want to bring back assymetrical warfare and airborne sniper? Why not go whole hog and give them the airburst mortar too?
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clonetroopers Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 534



« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2015, 06:58:17 pm »

main gun calli and falk 88 arty too then
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koimn6 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 121


« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2015, 07:01:48 pm »

Alright ladies, gimmie your best.

I need you to design either the AB or Commandos doctrine. As both are lacking in many areas and have no synergy at all. Nothing like the axis doctrines. Try to avoid things that need scar coding. Feel free to use some of the abilities in the previous doctrines, as most of the AB stuff can be easily re-used!  

mando coy need more buff, but i don't want sudden change. hope T2,T3 doctrine change first.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 07:03:51 pm by koimn6 » Logged

HOPE FOR MANDO! GLORIOUS!

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XIIcorps Offline
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2015, 07:10:43 pm »

You want to bring back assymetrical warfare and airborne sniper? Why not go whole hog and give them the airburst mortar too?
aIrburst mortar would be fine if it was a single shot like the PE inc round.
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Hicks58 Offline
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2015, 07:43:58 pm »

If people start giving full doctrine proposal, I'll look over any numbers they put. Biggest show stopper for me whilst I was Balance Lead was that I lacked imagination and I knew it - I can't design new doctrines for shit, but I can work the numbers on anything currently existing or proposed all day long.

Some shit can be really subtle too. Say a 10% damage buff on a Sherman for example? Doesn't sound like much, and it'd give you one less shot to kill certain vehicle/tank targets at the absolute most... But it'd do incredible things to it's medium range and long range AI splash damage. 10% is the sorta thing that'd let you consistently gib volks with your medium range splash, effectively turning your Sherman into a micro-Pershing for AI vs lower health inf.
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I mean I know Obama was the first one in EiR to get a card. and tbfh the Race card is pretty OP. but Romney has the K.K.K., those guys seem to camo anywhere. So OP units from both sides.
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PonySlaystation Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 4136



« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2015, 09:28:24 pm »

I apologize. It was not as serious as I remember it being.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 03:58:07 pm by PonySlaystation » Logged

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XIIcorps Offline
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2015, 09:41:21 pm »

You may want to proof read that, there's alot of minus's next to things where im sure you mean plus.
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nikomas Offline
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2015, 09:49:33 pm »

And plueses where you meant minus...

I think someone is getting a balance ban for trolling Wink
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 09:51:58 pm by nikomas » Logged

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Tachibana Offline
NotADev
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Posts: 1270


« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2015, 02:36:35 am »

Awww yeah, dat Dire AB. Heya.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_cnUoIHumrVyzLdqjcS8yLg12amkOf2IJ51f_ji_NQY/edit?usp=sharing




Basic ideas


1.) Interchange t3's: One thing I really don't like about the current AB doctrine is that the t3's do not work well together, so, I created some that I feel make for some interesting dual t3 combinations. For example, with the top and bottom t3, you get a combined -10 seconds off your drop time but also gain a number of buffs to your capping powers, and gain great buffs for quad support. If you want some nice AT buffs but also want the reduced timer, then either the top or bottom t3 with the mid t3 mix well.


2.) Top t4: For AB players who hate RR's.Death from above is now all about hyper-aggression. The -5 second drop from the t3 along with the -10 give you AB units that drop in 15 seconds. Combine this with additional nades and +6 pop, it is all about early game aggression. One thing of note though. I made sure the entire top line HAS NO OFFENSIVE BUFFS to anything but basic infantry. Sure, you get some buffs to vehicle speed, but not damage output. NO BUFFS TO RR'S/SUPPORT WEAPONS. This top t4 is all about aggression and mixes well with spare mags and ab explosives, but is not the ideal choice for RR use.

3.) Middle line: RR love. I feel like this is the line that some people will be skeptical of. I took the current AT eagles t2 and added 10% dmg to make it into a t3 (basically rr heat rounds). I wanted to make it a t3 to prevent either the top or bottom t4 from gaining the 20% pen buff. Tiger hunters though, AB with 3 buffed RR's??? OK,3 RR's bad Idea, changed to modifiers vs superheavies. Look at it this way though,
If you go mid t4 you no longer have;
a. Reduced drift rate
b. Smoke cover upon drop.
c. No reduced drop times, full 30 second deployment is forced.
This way, I believe that it is fairly balanced and will prevent ab vet hunt squads dropping into smoke cover in the backlines.


4.) Bottom t4: I feel this is self explanatory and highly flavorful. It is all about AB dropping in before an enemy deployment and making an ambush. Then, once the damage is done, either getting the fuck outa dodge or pushing the advantage.  


5.) Dat AB sniper: Lets face it, Sniper with AB armour and fireup that worked with cloak made for a death machine. Even so, I am nostalgic, so, The bottom t2 makes for an easily accessible sniper upgrade. Nothing super massive, but still enough for skilled hands to make a difference.


6.) AB engies: Cus ab engies are fucking awesome. Made cost 190 mp (+80) for the Airdrop and the Death From Above synergies

7.) Spare mags buff: Gain some additional synergy with Death From Above Second thought, not needed.

8.) AP quads Phase armour has always been a counter to RR's. However, the fact that Spam of ACs/Pumas/Hotchkiss/p2's can shutdown an entire coy is not right. As such, AP quads stay but do incur a munitions cost that, though is not major in say 4-6 quads, will certainly make a dent if you run 10+

9.) AB/AB rifle cost: Stay the same. T1 unlock, same costs.

10.) Holy shit, Mortar buffs: You'll note a smoke barrage buff in Hard n' Fast along with damage buffs in Hit and Run Specialists. Just the t4 bonus now. and Modified Equipment. You might be thinking, "Heymeng, 30% buff, you crazy1". Note, however, that the +10% in the t2 ONLY APPLIES TO AB MORTARS. As such, you will pay a manpower and munitions premium to get the souped up mortars. Furthermore, they are still outranged by axis mortars, so the basic meta stays the same.



Commandos

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G4ReS3ZWuK6PmNgq9DOW7sTpoo6HF8Xvaxb02tpGoN8/edit?usp=sharing



Basic Thoughts

1.) Tier 3 Synergy: Again, t3 synergy options is a big thing for me. In this case, there are two big things to be gained from double t3 picks. You can go for souped up officers with bonus health and better heroic charge or lit-up. Alternatively, you have a plethora of Light vehicle buffs, especially for staghounds and tets. Mobile repair brens also offer some protection while keeping mobile in what is a very fast mid doctrine line. You can also get quite a versatile CCT with the top and bottom t3's.

2.) Red Devils: What are Mandos all about? I decided it was getting into the fight and getting in fast. So, when combined with the CCT buff from the previous, Mandos can become quite dirty. I moved the -15% recieved acc buff onto the CCT for two reasons. First, extra micro of keeping the cct alive makes it harder to make use of the -15% acc buff, but it is also why I can have reason two, Give Mandos a -15% reload buff. In addition, i took a toned down Blitz lightning war to help give the mandos some light vehicle support.

3.) RAF tree: At first, it was a bit difficult to figure out a tree that ran around the idea of air support. Then, it hit me to just make it a continuation of the t3. While the t3 give a select number of LV's the ability to escape a situation while repairing, I decided that the t4 would basically do the same, but for infantry. Basically use the glider sprint aura to engage a target, then pop vehicle and mando smoke to get the fuck out. Reduced commando smoke timer to help continue these hit and run tactics.

4.) Enigma Decoded: Enigma Decoded is funny as a tree, as there are no direct combat buffs yet it could be the most powerful tree. Basically, rather than direct buffs, you are getting constant information through the massive scouting potential of your units. Units like commando snipers, piats, fireflies will always know whats coming and be able to decide how they wish to engage them. +5 pop doesn't hurt either.

5.) Mando Weapons options: Well, more options are merrier, and the munitions hike reflects the better platform. Basically, was going for an almost allied falls kind of flexibility. Instead of shrecks, piats, instead of fausts, boy-at, and riflenades are mirror.

6.) New Typhoon Since everyone seems to think the current typhoon is lackluster, I feel a slightly less powerful henschel fits right into Commandos. Two planes, but 100 dmg per hit rather than the 150 currently done by the PE version. Mainly to balance out with the ridiculous scouting abilities of Enigma decoded (though pe get cloak kettens for their run)

7.) +15% Pen buff: Honestly, not sure if this is better in the top T4 or the middle T3. Could be moved to either location.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 07:00:16 pm by Tachibana » Logged

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Mister Schmidt Offline
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Posts: 5006



« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2015, 02:36:43 am »

Pony is that serious?

Parts of it are hilariously overpowered and other parts give you a huge negative tradeoff..

If it's a joke please remove your post.
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XIIcorps Offline
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2015, 02:40:45 am »

Pony is that serious?

Parts of it are hilariously overpowered and other parts give you a huge negative tradeoff..

If it's a joke please remove your post.
it clearly is, it mentions a part about horses getting a buff on roads, we dont have horses yet.
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Korpisolttu Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 218



« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2015, 04:19:44 am »

Are you serious??! AB is the least puff needing doc... no they need a freaking nerf. People have been using recently this aggressive AB smoke drop spam with spare magazines and it's hard to stop even with decent counters. It doesn't matter if you try to kill em with vehicles or inf, they'll just run past vechiles and kill all infantry so they can cap even more and then they'll just keep dropping the endless waves of AB no matter what the casualties are.
I'm not saying that it's not counterable, but you need to design your company exactly to counter smoke covered AB drops and that is gambling as it leaves your doctrine vulnerable to more common builds. Only time I managed to stop this with Shabtajus and Crimsonrabbit was when one of the ally players dropped and we managed to zero captimer.

And seriously, recoiles rifles are good (some like to think they're OP, but imo they're fine), crocs with .50cals are nice if you can use them properly so there's no need to puff AB. If AB needs redesign you should look into spare magazines and smoke coz somethings horribly wrong with those.
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Korpisolttu Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 218



« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2015, 04:22:36 am »

If they need redesign and you want to get ab snipers/mortars w/e back, remove smoke drops and sparemagazines then.
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Tachibana Offline
NotADev
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Posts: 1270


« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2015, 07:34:25 am »

Added mando draft to original post.
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Hicks58 Offline
Development
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Posts: 5343



« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2015, 07:45:11 am »

Some numbers raise eyebrows, but your two designs have some serious merit in concept Dire.

For example though, you can't give 0.5 speed to an infantry unit on the Commandos top T4. Speed for inf is 1/2/3/4. Pinned/suppressed, walking, standard run speed, sprinting. That is hard-coded and non-negotiable.

Also, smoke on deployment for AB really, REALLY needs to go. Fast, hyper aggressive drops are one thing, but to be essentially invulnerable on your 15 second drops is another. It has been proven to be a complete and utter game breaking pain in the ass.

I'll review in detail the numbers for the docs in short order.
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tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2015, 07:46:50 am »

AB doc was always the toughest for previous dev teams to create simply because AB are almost fine with no doc buffs.

Be very careful with AB. It takes very little to put them over the top.


Edit:

Exactly the kind of thing I was getting at.

Also, smoke on deployment for AB really, REALLY needs to go. Fast, hyper aggressive drops are one thing, but to be essentially invulnerable on your 15 second drops is another. It has been proven to be a complete and utter game breaking pain in the ass.

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