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Author Topic: Adjust the Price of BARS  (Read 30361 times)
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Thtb Offline
The German Guy
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3875


« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2008, 03:44:11 am »

Always depends, some of us like unk0wn are hardcore players that can easly perform 5 mouse actions per secound.

Others are more FPS focused where the combination of the keyboard + mouse is needed witch they then can apply to RTS.


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UnLimiTeD5 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 70


« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2008, 05:48:18 am »

I do both, and still fail occasionally.

Really, microing 3 riflemen squads with bars and probably grenades is harder that 1 kch and 1 mg42.
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GamerAndy Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 477


« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2008, 10:33:06 am »

I'm going to swoop in and post some statistical information all of this can be found on COH-stats.com

First off let's compare damage between the two. BAR does 7/LMG does 5
So the BAR deals more damage? Yes, in theory.

Time to factor in additional information:
LMG burst duration is 2-1/BAR burst duration is 1.25-0.75=That means that the LMG roughly fires for about 3/4 longer then a BAR squad.
Rate of fire for the LMG is: 15-15/ BAR RoF is 7-7. So that means that in two seconds an LMG will dispense of 30 bullets and in 1.25 seconds a BAR will dispense 8.75 bullets
They both have a similar reload frequency so they will repeat this cycle at most 8 times before having to reload.
LMG cooldown is 3.5 BAR is 2.0

So lets add these up and show the difference in damage done by these two weapons.

Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 seconds,Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Reload for 6.5 seconds. So in a total of 39 seconds before reloading the drum the LMG will have fired 240 bullets, each bullet doing 5 damage for a total of 1,200 damage if everyone hits.

BAR: Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Reload or 3.5 seconds. So in 24 seconds the BAR will fire 168 bullets and deal 1,176 damage if everyone hit.

Of course not everyone would hit so lets factor in an engagement from medium distance:
LMG M accuracy: .3x240=72 bullets hitting their target x 5= 360 damage at medium range.
BAR M accuracy: .45x168=75.6 bullets hitting their target x 7= 525 damage at medium range.

Remember that this is assuming the target is shot at at the same distance for anywhere between 39-24 seconds with no cover.

You can further expand this by applying the accuracy incremental which would make the numbers look like this:
LMG M accuracy: .3x1.05^6~0.4x240=96 bullets hitting x 5=480 damage
BAR M accuracy: .45x1.02^4~0.49x168~82 bullets hitting x 7=574 damage

Now take those revised numbers and multiply the damage by .75
480x.75=360 damage for an LMG in a span of 39(s) *against Riflemen*
574x.75=430.5 damage for a BAR in a span of 24(s) *against Grens*
However I don't see this as a practical engagement so lets do these numbers for a span of 10s

LMG: Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5. Bullets fired=60
BAR: Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, plus a lil extra for .25 seconds. Bullets fired~26

Accuracy incremental: 0.4x60=24 bullets hitting for LMG/ 0.49x26=12 bullets hitting for BAR
base damage x 0.75= 5x0.75=3.75 damage per bullet for LMG/ 7x0.75=5.25 damage for a BAR

Totals: 3.75x24=90 damage in 10s for LMG/5.25x12=63 damage in 10s

So overall the BAR may deal more damage if it fires for the full 24 seconds however the rifle squad will be non-existent. That is where the LMG has the edge short engagements where it excels at. As for suppression the BAR base suppression is only .0005 higher then an LMG. Without SF a BAR would only have an edge against regular troops. This is one of the main reasons why I like LMGs over BARs. Sure they can suppress but when they are suppressing they are not killing, and their whole suppression ability is null if you are in heavy cover. Not to mention LMGs have 5 more range then a BAR, get better the more riflemen it faces (accuracy incremental is per man..), and at short range an LMG lands 75% of its 30 round burst. So guys, please stop bitching about the BAR, right now it is fine, it adds a little bit of fire power and if you aren't a retard only 1 squad at max will get suppressed and die/retreat as long as you don't blob. Don't blame the game if you are having 4 squads all blobbed together suppressed and run off the field.



Erm, good post but you forgot one critical thing

Whenever you talk about the BAR, you have to multiply your final results by 2, you ran up the numbers as 1 LMG vs. 1 BAR - but under no circumstances will you ever see a squad of riflemen walk on the field with any number of BARs besides 0 or 2 - the BAR upgrade gives 2 weapons.
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Thtb-Ally Offline
The German Guy on the Ally side?
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1812


« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2008, 10:39:44 am »

So

*Math* + *More Math* = Bar op?
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GamerAndy Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 477


« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2008, 10:46:10 am »

i dunno about that, but the math is incorrect in its posted form
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Bodybag2224-Armor Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 735


« Reply #85 on: November 20, 2008, 04:40:16 pm »

I'll revise with 2 BARs.
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2008, 04:33:40 pm »

NEWSFLASH :
GRENADIERS HAVE MOAR HEALTH THAN RIFLES.
Also, I'm pretty sure BARs do NOT have accuracy incremenetal.
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stumpster Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 2197


« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2008, 04:39:14 pm »

1.02 incremental accuracy for BARs compared to 1.05 for the LMG42.
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UnLimiTeD7 Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 25


« Reply #88 on: November 22, 2008, 04:46:00 pm »

means 1.3 lmg vs. riflemen, 1.08 for Bars against Grens
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Thtb-Ally Offline
The German Guy on the Ally side?
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1812


« Reply #89 on: November 22, 2008, 04:49:26 pm »

NEWSFLASH :
GRENADIERS HAVE MOAR HEALTH THAN RIFLES.
Also, I'm pretty sure BARs do NOT have accuracy incremenetal.

Talk about short sighted...

Though about those facts:

Grens cost accordingly more.
Grens have less squad members (do i have to explain what that means?)
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Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
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Posts: 18379


« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2008, 06:07:07 pm »

I still agree with stumpster's suggestion, that's the only change BARs need imo.
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Falcon333 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1125


« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2008, 02:28:52 pm »

NEWSFLASH :
GRENADIERS HAVE MOAR HEALTH THAN RIFLES.
Also, I'm pretty sure BARs do NOT have accuracy incremenetal.

Talk about short sighted...

Though about those facts:

Grens cost accordingly more.
Grens have less squad members (do i have to explain what that means?)

Don't axis infantry heal over time with vet 1 or so? (Even if only a little)
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Killer344 Offline
The Inquisitor
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Posts: 6904



« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2008, 02:36:32 pm »

yep.
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Rahx Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1147



« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2008, 03:15:13 pm »

yep.
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why is everyone except me retarded?
MistenTH Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 199


« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2008, 04:40:48 am »

Yea BARs are too cheap.
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Armandillo Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 65


« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2008, 05:18:45 am »

I have bars on almost all riflemen on armor company.

But i dont wanna go back to bars costing like 100.

Something like 85 will be nice.
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3rdCondor Offline
Donator
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Posts: 1536


« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2012, 07:30:36 pm »

Bars are fine just the way they are!!! For crying out loud!!!!

Add some ketten goliaths plz
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Groundfire Offline
EIRR community manager
EIR Veteran
Posts: 8511



« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2012, 10:40:37 pm »

I like how we are just locking necro'ed topics now. I went for the lock button and was like "oh, someone beat me to it. Good job you handsome mod." Wink
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