Paks sniping at guns

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[SSPzDivision]

Well why not make PAK ability simple...
It will camoflage when it is in light cover such like the bloody Goliath and it gets its 3 Bonus shots.

But I still think that PAK's Camoflage ability isn't a game turner, in fact it is just a key to keep fast allied armor away. Rushing Crocodile toasts the crew immidiately. And besides. Axis were defending in Normandy more than in attacking and I guess it is a good reason why the little pak gun is always hidden in the bushes to ambush allied armored units.

Like Myst said. If you are dumb to push it on front line in front of invisible pak you deserve to lose it...If Axis pushes it too close THEY Deserve to lose their pak too, simple. It ain't a gameturner and I think it is one of the best ways of dealing with 57mm. Finally Wehr found a counter to WTFPWN AT Gun and then it must be taken away... sad day for Axis history.

I play both sides, got my AT gun sniped but I just took it farer on and it was a victory w00t xD Be cautious of the fragile AT Gun. It needs as much care take like a baby. As Schultz yells at me "WHY THE HELL YOU DIDNT BRING ANY AT GUNS YOU GOD (cencored stuff)" They need care take. You can't rush a 57mm since there is always a MG, Mortar and two rifleman squads or a blob of rangers behind it. Try and destroy it with infantry. I wish you luck!
Avoid PAKs pull your AT guns back...

[Malevolence]

omg stfu dude, you can't counter snipe something you can't see you dip shit, did you read what every one else is saying? By the time you can move your AT Gun and realize ur getting sniped, more than liely, they'ge got 2 hits on you and may get a shot or 2 off when ur moving. You're the troll dude, just going thru the balance discussion today pulliing up old threads and reviving them with your brilliant insight (sarcasm)

You disregarded a tank reaper based AT counter snipe as invalid despite it literally oneshotting a pak that's decloaked for its third shot. Paks cannot kill 57mm AT guns in two shots, thus "pak sniping" is only a valid danger if it takes its third shot and destroys your AT gun. You, however, are disregarding this argument entirely, thus making your own argument invalid as you are not willing to accept refutation and counterevidence, but rather do not address it.

I am not a troll for adding my angle and insight on topics that are at most a week old, however, that is known as being productive and helpful in the general balance discussion.

Only if you have an artillery company it comes faster, but wtf it is a tier 4. Howitzer offmap and rocket artillery are pretty much the same. Rocket artillery has a larger area of effect but it is also a t4 so its ok. Axis and Allies artillery is very powerful

Actually you'll note that the offmap 105 howitzer shoot does more damage per shot and has a smaller spread, although it does fire less shots if you do not get the relative tier 4, at which point it comes down faster and fires as many shots as rocket barrage, just as fast, doing more damage a piece. Comparatively tier 4 offmap 105 shoot is more powerful than tier 4 rocket artillery going strictly by the numbers, but that's not really the topic.

The ability to cloak is, unfortunately, a woeful necessity for the pak under duress of heavily superior allied support deployment otherwise it would die a horrible horrible doom very very often. Now this of course is balanced by the fact that it costs more. I think that cloaking itself is in no way the problem anyone has, and pak sniping is one of the axis's fewer ways to actually destroy rather than decrew AT guns. Decrewed AT guns are pointless, as the US can constantly reman them, so I find that the pak's ability to destroy opposing AT guns is warranted, just as the 57's ability to destroy paks is, if they can find them.

They should fucking disable human crush on tanks already, there's really no arguement for keeping it in the game. (And no, not having human crush will not mean that infantry can block your tanks)

...

What. All this will do is encourage the opposite of what is presently happening - infantry run from tanks for fear of being crushed, without the crush infantry will run around tanks with impunity losing only a few men to the turret turn speed. In theory you could circle strafe a tank with infantry because it couldn't do anything to you once you get within a range too close for the turret to keep up. Infantry crush is what makes a tank a true fear to infantry, even if it can be annoying to be receiving it.

[Fingertrapped]

Honestly I think it would make for a better game of EiR too if at guns werent counters to each other.

[MrBilly506ALLIED]

This is a problem in retail CoH as well. Maybe this mod and its balance team could show a strong hand by nerfing accuracy between at guns. You shouldnt need to blob up elite infantry or other silly stuff just to take out camoed paks. In fact, its considered a genuine balance issue over at Gamereplays.org (where I come from) and from my experience in the community at large.

"Paks sniping at guns is bs"

Basically sums it up. Its hard for balanced american builds to advance upon defending germans when their at guns gets sniped by paks with no chance of retribution. Some targets (like the king tiger) is just not viable to take on with tanks only. You need those at guns. If the paks just sniped the crew now and then, it wouldnt be so bad as you could be smart and recrew with supporting riflemanz. But alas, the gun itself is destroyed.

A couple of different fixes are proposed:

- Long range accuracy of the Pak is nerfed against the 57 MM
- Both 57 MM and Pak has vastly decreased accuracy against each other at long range (most realistic I think)
- At guns snipe crews now, not the gun themselves (perhaps the best idea and a previous way this was handled)
- Accuracy between at guns are nerfed to neglible levels (0,05 - 0,10) at all accuracy ranges.

this makes sense but i always witness the allies overwhelm the axis at guns time after time and often the allies protect their at guns from being sniped by paks. In my opinion i don't believe the allies need any more help in winning.

[Smithy17]

At least let paks captured by the americans cloak, I do not see why they can't.

[GamerAndy]

it has to do with the units themselves actually
all werh infantry have a conditional cloak attached to them that basically says "if this unit is manning a pak it can cloak" whereas the american and brit and pe units do not have that built into them

basically means lot of extra work for the devs, not impossible to do or even terribly difficult, but it is a bit tedious and time consuming

[Schultz]

Honestly I think it would make for a better game of EiR too if at guns werent counters to each other.

Yeah. Most definetely.
As far as crush goes, i never wanted to go away.
I mean its a tank coming your way and its gonna wtfcrush you if youre not getting out of its way.
Exploiting the non-crush advantage to destroy every tank is highly unrealistic for me.
For all i care, make it so they can crush jeeps and bikes as well!

[Thtb]

I played a mod where tanks would be able to crush jeep and at guns....

Well it was quite redicouls, tanks just charged evrything they saw.


Also I oppose jeep blocking as a actuall tactic, however if you got some support troops you wont have to worry about it.

Lets go though the scenarios;

Jeep + tank vs your tank = just turn your front to the enemy tank and your fine.
Jeep + AT gun vs your tank = Well you should not have rushed ahead with a goddamm Tank, silly.
                                         If you wanna pull that off, learn 2 micro.

[DuckOfDoom]

Honestly I think it would make for a better game of EiR too if at guns werent counters to each other.

Yeah. Most definetely.
As far as crush goes, i never wanted to go away.
I mean its a tank coming your way and its gonna wtfcrush you if youre not getting out of its way.
Exploiting the non-crush advantage to destroy every tank is highly unrealistic for me.
For all i care, make it so they can crush jeeps and bikes as well!

The problem that I see with the Tank Crush is NOT the ability itself, its that Tank Crush heavily favors axis due to the retarded pathing on units. This is not really a micro problem, its related to squad sized. Axis infantry consists mainly of 4 man squads which are easier to keep in coherency (not counting volks), unlike the 6 man allied squads which CONSTANTLY trip over cover and get stuck in trees. Since a 6 man squad will have more trouble staying in coherency then a 4 man squad, it is easier to separate and overrun an allied infantry squad then an axis one.

If you dont believe me, here is a list of wonderful bugs that constantly plague allied infantry:

Anti tank infantry vs Tank around the corner - Front 2 non at weapon guys engage, the rest of the squad is left behind the corner, despite the two guys with rifles not being able to hurt the tank.

Anti tank infantry vs Tank head on - squad splits into 2 groups of 3, which try to converge on the center (where the tank is)

Infantry in cover - 1 guy on the left and right ALWAYS try to flank the cover and thus are not in cover, sometimes even when you right click and drag the direction pointer.

Infantry under suppressive fire at maximum range - half of the squad drops down and bogs the entire squad down, since they cant get up for whatever reason after getting out of the suppressive fire, and continue to crawl into coherency before getting the fuck up.

Fire up and Retreat Order lag - this one is fucking retarded. The squad needs to be IN COHERENCY before it can process the order. Which means that johnny the retard that got stuck behind the corner in some house will hold the entire squad up while fired up because he cant get to his buddies fast enough, wasting valuable fire up time. Same goes with Retreat!, if the squad is not in coherency/someone died as the order was given, the squad WILL take at least a second before running away, or worse yet, stand there waiting for everyone to gather together BEFORE running away, while being completely uncontrollable due to the Retreat! order.

Shell shock - again, any shell shock will stun the entire squad even if it hit johnny the retard who got stuck.

Basically, as far as game mechanics go, I would favor 4 man allied squads with more hit points then 6 man squads of retards. That would also make the axis snipers more effective as well.

On topic:

I think that Pak guns should not be able to camo on the move. They should camo in the same way hetzers and piat sappers do in vCoh (which is, they can only camo while standing still and are not spotted before hand).

[Malevolence2]

Duck, all of those problems affect axis squads just as badly, if not worse. Because each man in their squad is worth more, when they pull such shenanigans it hurts the axis player a lot worse - and they're just as likely to happen.

[Killer344]

indeed, you don´t have tanks like the m10 to crush infantry with the axis :p.

I used m10s as my main anti-infantry for some time and it was very effective lol..

[Malevolence2]

Yeah, the M10 Carmageddon company squished a lot of my good mans. I mean, they all died a horrible horrible death, but still. All those good mans

[DuckOfDoom]

Duck, all of those problems affect axis squads just as badly, if not worse. Because each man in their squad is worth more, when they pull such shenanigans it hurts the axis player a lot worse - and they're just as likely to happen.

That is true, but what I am saying is that axis infantry is much less likely to pull such nonsense because of their smaller squad sizes. Simple less men=less room for ai error logic.

[FingerTrapped2]

In my opinion the american tanks are more suited to crush the axis. Fausts and shreks dont give off engine damage or "last stand stickies": when the axis tank automatically takes sticky damage even though the sticky guy gets overun. Also allies can strafe or use supression fire to make the axis infantry unable to move out of the way (ask morka how effective this is).

[Malevolence2]

Actually, no. The exact same things happen, but instead of two guys running off, it's one guy. The effect is the same, proportionally.

Whether the tank runs in the middle and they split into two groups of three who subsequently run into the treads or they split into two groups of two who subsequently run into the treads doesn't matter all that much, because they're still running into the fucking treads! :/

[Tymathee]

i agree. its silly that pak guns can camo while on the move, its just silly. It should either only camo in cover or not moving.

[Malevolence2]

...Why? The gun costs substantially more.

[NationalSozialismus]

In the game, At can be decrewed or destroyed. If 1 axis and 1 allies at is decrewed in the long run the axis going to suffer more from it cause allies usually have plenty infantry (more man in single squad and more man in whole company) to recrew it. So axis have dedicate resources to destroy at gun and pak sniping is only one reliable not doctrinal option to do that. Change that and it will change whole game.

That is not true at all. Unless I'm playing my Infantry doctrine account, I have about the same amount of infantry or sometimes less, than my Axis Defensive account.

Second, Axis have dedicated resources to destroy support weapons. Mortar teams, Snipers, and artillery can be used to destroy AT Guns. As for the Allies, destroying Pak Guns is certainly more difficult because of its ability to camoflague. There is no reason for the Pak Guns to be able to destroy 57mm AT Guns especially concerning how much more vulnerable the 57mm is compared to the Pak Gun. It's a cheap tactic similar to the old Pak Gun sniping Mortar days.

Axis have dedicated resources to destroy support weapons? LoL.

You're thinking of Allies, Axis has to destroy them with ground forces, we don't have real artillery (except in defensive), nebels take multiple barrages to kill an ATG, snipers are killed by allied ATG's often. Mortars are also easily killed. Airborne --> Drop--> Shoot --> Satchel --> Dead. I don't like taking an argument too far but Axis have less ways of dealing with support weapons than allies.

Let's make a list of each sides ability to deal with support weapons, let's assume HMG + AT Gun, because if you don't have a HMG near your AT gun you deserve to lose it anyways and should thus, stop crying, now I assumed no doctrines:

Allies:
Calliope
Strafing Run
Howitzer
Airborne
Rangers
Mortar
Sniper
Offmap Artillery

Axis:
Stukka zu Fuss
Rocket Artillery
Fire Storm (Maybe, often doesn't)
Nebel (Maybe, often doesn't)
Mortar

Perhaps now it's clear why Pak guns are used in that way, the axis counters to ATG's are very few and far between and their counters are themselves very easily counterable, especially by rangers and airborne, which are very common units despite arguments to the contrary.

Perhaps Pershing companies can't easily take out Pak guns when they go down alternate paths, but that's a choice they make, if Pak guns are such a problem perhaps they should take an alternate route. Sorry buy if you removed Pak sniping you would see allies steamrolling.

Btw: Why aren't more ATG's in defensive positions where sniping them would be very difficult...? I've seen many good players position them in ways that they can't be sniped but still be useful at any assaulting tanks.

[Scaevola]

Perhaps now it's clear why Pak guns are used in that way, the axis counters to ATG's are very few and far between and their counters are themselves very easily counterable, especially by rangers and airborne, which are very common units despite arguments to the contrary.

lol infantry? Its not fair for the allies only counter to heavy axis armor, (and something that is a requirement in any decent company) is countered by something that is *CLOAKED* and thus impossible to kill!

[gamesguy5]

Perhaps now it's clear why Pak guns are used in that way, the axis counters to ATG's are very few and far between and their counters are themselves very easily counterable, especially by rangers and airborne, which are very common units despite arguments to the contrary.

lol infantry? Its not fair for the allies only counter to heavy axis armor, (and something that is a requirement in any decent company) is countered by something that is *CLOAKED* and thus impossible to kill!

Pak is not impossible to kill.  Whenever the pak moves it sounds like godzilla moving through the fow and you can hear when it stops.  I can tell you the general location where a pak is 90% of the time when I play allies.   After which I just send a random max range mortar barrage and voila one near hit will tell you exactly where it is.   57mm has no such liability.

All allied doctrines have an easy way to kill a pak with.   Infantry can use the howitzer or fired up rangers, airborne can use recon/57mm snipe, airborne drop(my favorite tactic when I play raid assault), strafe(which explodes the gun more often than not), and bombing run.   Armor can use calliopes, or if you have pershings use a scouting jeep to reveal and then shoot the pak.   Jeeps with the scouting ability will easilly last long enough, it dodges 80% of all AT fire and can take several hits from AT weapons to kill.   Note this is assuming the player is supporting his pak and not letting it sit somewhere by itself, so a direct infantry charge is suicidal.

To kill a 57mm, axis can use rocket arty, firestorm, storms, nebels, and stukas.  We're discounting mortars and snipers because both sides can use them.   The axis mortar has an easier time vs the 57mm, the allied sniper has a harder time vs the pak(need something to bait to reveal it first).

Rocket arty is a reliable counter, storms can be a good counter.  Stukas and nebels are terrible counters.    I've had my 57mm sit under 4+ stuka barrages and take minimal damage.  Nebels are similarly bad against AT guns.   Firestorm can work with a little luck, so we'll call that a decent counter.

Do you see the problem now?  The superiority of allied arty mandates the cloaking pak, which still dies to everything anyways.  Where as the paucity of effective axis arty makes it more difficult to kill well supported AT guns.

Btw, faster recharging axis arty is not better or remotely equal to heavy hitting but slower recharging allied arty.    When you use artillery, you want that defensive line broken now so your army can charge through and attack.   Not sit there and bombard the position for several minutes and give your opponent time to shift the position, repair and reman stuff.