[cw] Commando sten vs Soldier armor (PE)

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[Mysthalin]

Myst... A mid game drop would take roughly the same time to get to the desired location as walking on.

.... How the hell did you come to that conclusion, anyway?


As for the SMGs - yes, we all know they're priced wrong. And by seperating them from the unit - we'll have more perspective on setting a RIGHT price on them.

[Spartan_Marine88]

And if you glider drop mid game, you risk the glider dropping into a hostile situation and falling victim to instant death.

Your squads get ambushed on the way walking in there's a nice and comfortable retreat button which will give you a good chance of getting out of dodge.

Myst... A mid game drop would take roughly the same time to get to the desired location as walking on. The difference is that walking would be safer. Late game would take longer than walking on unless the map was sincerely huge and you'd pushed them to near spawn.

The only advantage would be in the early game... And if Gliders ended up being standardised to a 30 second drop (Which is something that I can see happening when Commandos get looked at again...), they would be riskier and the same duration to call in as walking on.

As for the SMG's themselves, I said if they were left at the same price, as a separate upgrade. A price decrease or a performance increase WOULD make them more appealing.

 Rear dropping is not only a viable tactic its quite easy to do, especiailly if you get the drop timer decrease, recon and spot a clear path throw it down, trade a commando squad for a few vetted support weapons and all your allies pat you on the back. Combine it with RAF, and you can bag yourself some of those repairing vetted tanks

sure i lose my mandoes nearly everytime but i would trade them every time to eliminate axis support weapons that rape allied stuff

[Hicks58]

Because the gliders use the same time before they drop in as actually calling on a set of reinforcements.

It's about 2-3 seconds added onto the reinforcement timer if memory serves...

Gliders follow this same principle, if you've called in 6 call in's before you drop that glider, you will HAVE to wait 12-18 seconds (Or however long it actually is, you could answer that for me in fact) before the glider will drop down.

They are not independent of timers like Airborne are... They fall in with the rest of your company.

Feel free to go test it, or check out the stats in the background if my word is not enough for you.

Hell, if your truly persistent on proving me wrong, I've still got a level 7 Commandos Doctrine on my account, you can go give it a whirl if you like. My 4 squads of vet 3 Commandos have been waiting for a glorious death for a while anyhow.

[Mysthalin]

Hicks...

Both the call-on-foot men and the gliders will take the exact same time to be called in.

However, the foot-soldiers will have to walk the 120+ units(this is the average distance from the spawn to the middle of the map on most 2v2s), which will take on average at least half a minute to get to the front line.

A glider drops and has it's payload exit in about 7-8 seconds.

So yeah - gliders will always get your troops to the front faster, unless you're fighting at your spawn.

[Spartan_Marine88]

A glider drops and has it's payload exit in about 7-8 seconds.

Glider takes only about 1 second per unit in it to disembark.

[Mysthalin]

I'm counting in the time it takes for the glider to land and open the front, Spartan.

[Spartan_Marine88]

I'm counting in the time it takes for the glider to land and open the front, Spartan.

ah ok

[Hicks58]

The Gliders may get that 7-8 second advantage, but when you have to wait 30 seconds anyhow... The battlefield conditions could of changed, and rapidly.

Rapidly in a way not in your favour, and in the favour of dropping your glider on a squad of advancing KCH, or, or, or...

Perhaps I was off with my idea of the time taking to walk to said point in the map, but when prior call in time is involved above say... Ten seconds? It becomes much safer to walk your chaps on.

[Mysthalin]

Drop your gliders on the sides of hte map, rather than centre - where the fighting is taking place? If you can't foresee where the frontline will be in just 30 seconds - that's your problem.

[Firesparks]

They're great against wehr and maybe meh vs. PE. I havent checked in awhile. Maybe the reason that Stens suck so much against soldier armor is because in vCoH theres the very large possibility that the brit player could have commandos before PE got their 4th man upgrade, making commandos fight 3 man squads. If the sten wasnt nerfed for this, they'd rip through PE infantry.

3man PE squads are gone. If testing proves appropriate then I think stens should be brought into line with other weapons vs. soldier armor.

Also, maybe commandos should get grenades by default since Stens are a mandatory built in upgrade for commandos. If we are forced to take this built in assault package, i think making grenades default for no muni upgrade would make them cost efficient.

My vet 0 mp44 PG manage to beat Jack's vet 2 Commandos with LT and mark target support. The commandos need a buff against PE.

[Hicks58]

If you drop your guys at the side, and the front line changes, you risk them becoming cut off and useless.

You drop them a good distance behind the front lines and you might as well as walk them on anyhow as it would take all of a couple seconds more all the same - And you wouldn't have the risk of a roaming Puma spotting your landing and tearing the thing up.

[Mysthalin]

All I can say is - learn to drop gliders?

[Spartan_Marine88]

If you drop your guys at the side, and the front line changes, you risk them becoming cut off and useless.

You drop them a good distance behind the front lines and you might as well as walk them on anyhow as it would take all of a couple seconds more all the same - And you wouldn't have the risk of a roaming Puma spotting your landing and tearing the thing up.

Roaming puma? honestly you worry too much, no one has the resources to take a puma around and micro it looking for a single crashed glider, that is if they manage to hear it. And hell if they do manage to hear it and are microing a single puma after you mandoes. Start kicking yourself for not mixing your squads with a mando and a mando piat.

also  pat yours self on the back because while he is out microing that search force you attack.

[Firesparks]

Drop your gliders on the sides of hte map, rather than centre - where the fighting is taking place? If you can't foresee where the frontline will be in just 30 seconds - that's your problem.

Even with all the great thing glider drop could be, it's still a gimmick. Airborne troops are great even if you don't take full Advantage of air drop and use them as plain infantry. Commandos should be a good squad with the glider drop being a bonus.

Commandos are not off map artillery.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Even with all the great thing glider drop could be, it's still a gimmick. Airborne troops are great even if you don't take full Advantage of air drop and use them as plain infantry. Commandos should be a good squad with the glider drop being a bonus.

Commandos are not off map artillery.

they are more like mobile butterfly mines with multiple uses when used right

But in VCOH, they were pretty much Off Map Artillery though.

[Hicks58]

All I can say is - learn to drop gliders?

Make a Commando account, level it up, show me how it's done.

I CAN use them, I CAN drop them, and I HAVE done it - To which there are people that can confirm this, hell, Spartan has watched me do it on more than one occasion.

I don't like having to though, and I'm pointing out how bloody vulnerable they are.

You want to play the L2P card, then I call the replay or your full of crap card.

My issue with gliders is their fragility and utter lack of discretion.

[Firesparks]

They are not i agree, they are more like mobile butterfly mines when used right

don't get caught up in the metaphor. Glider drop is hardly better than the plain paradrop. Yes paradrop/glider can be useful tool if used right, but the troop shouldn't be force to take full advantage of it.

Airborne and FallschirmJager have paradrop but they still need to be useful elite infantry even without taking the full use of paradrop. Commandos should be the same way. There are times when airdrop are useful but the commandos should be a useful unit even without having to airdrop.  

[Spartan_Marine88]

And they are, combine them with a bren squad, and you got a nice combo.

See a HMG team, rush the mandoes as soon as suppression sets in smoke to break go cloak nade the building (if in one) move to side of building hose the remainder allow bren to move up to hold counter attack at range or have a HMG of your own use insta suppress and let mandoes rush and attack.

I think the main problem is everyone wants them to preform exactly like falls and ab, when they aren't. They never will be they are Commandoes and they operate diff and need diff tactics.

[Firesparks]

And they are, combine them with a bren squad, and you got a nice combo.

See a HMG team, rush the mandoes as soon as suppression sets in smoke to break go cloak nade the building (if in one) move to side of building hose the remainder allow bren to move up to hold counter attack at range or have a HMG of your own use insta suppress and let mandoes rush and attack.

I think the main problem is everyone wants them to preform exactly like falls and ab, when they aren't. They never will be they are Commandoes and they operate diff and need diff tactics.

Even if you want commandos to be "different", there's still the matter of their price tag. 350mp 165mu is not a fair price for how strong the commandos is.

The commandos right now have sten gun, smoke, and grenade. That would mean the commandos need to get in close. However, the Commandos' currently durable are far too weak for that purpose. You said you wanted the commandos to be different, but your example could be performed just as well by AB rifles, or rangers, both of which are much better unit. Right now the commandos is just weaker, not "different"

Different doesn't mean weaker. Ranger and Airborne are both durable troops but their upgrade make them handle very differently. The Ranger's equipment favor close in combat while the airborne's equipment allow them to pick off enemy at long range.

[Hicks58]

I'm not asking them to eat HMG's and shit AP rounds.

I'm asking them to not die upon being looked at funny by my enemy.

Or be cost efficient enough to warrant that happening.