Sherman Jumbo

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[Mister Schmidt]

Both of you please calm down?

This is about balancing the Jumbo.

[DarkSoldierX]

Yes and I put in my input and I am waiting for feedback other than "it aint that easy" Like killing panthers is easy.

[Mysthalin]

You see, the simple fact of the matter is that it is unfair to expect every single axis player to have a panther or above in their builds if they wish to reliably be able to counter the jumbo - a heavy tank that, surprisingly, comes from infantry doctrine.

Of course one could claim "metagame" and ask you "adjust" - but the thing is the sheer existence of the jumbo is not something that is dependant on the metagame - and REQUIRING every axis player to have a certain tank in their builds just so they could potentially counter the jumbo is simply silly - hence we ask that the jumbo be made weaker against the standard AT counters that any wehr or PE player could field against any other company (even RSE or Armour) and still retain adequately efficient at their AT duties.

[DarkSoldierX]

You see, the simple fact of the matter is that it is unfair to expect every single axis player to have a panther or above in their builds if they wish to reliably be able to counter the jumbo - a heavy tank that, surprisingly, comes from infantry doctrine.

Of course one could claim "metagame" and ask you "adjust" - but the thing is the sheer existence of the jumbo is not something that is dependant on the metagame - and REQUIRING every axis player to have a certain tank in their builds just so they could potentially counter the jumbo is simply silly - hence we ask that the jumbo be made weaker against the standard AT counters that any wehr or PE player could field against any other company (even RSE or Armour) and still retain adequately efficient at their AT duties.

Yes and so you say 0.65 mod with churchill and +1 pop is not enough? Propose a new modifier. I tried to get the modifier closest as I can to current jumbo with fixing some problems it had with chunkiness and inconsistencies vs axis weapons. Panther doesnt HAVE to be used, but for damn shure it will be fine at its job.

Propose what you want. Dont just say. "You wrong because of this and this" and not tell me exactly what you want.

And I am asking for numbers, not "need to be weaker to this"

[Mister Schmidt]

Numbers are helpful indeed.

[Mysthalin]

You.. do realise what I proposed was churchil armour and 0.75 rec pen, right? I was merely replying to the side-tracked argument of "USE PANTHER NABS".

[DarkSoldierX]

You.. do realise what I proposed was churchil armour and 0.75 rec pen, right? I was merely replying to the side-tracked argument of "USE PANTHER NABS".

And I was merly replying to +1 pop which isnt a bad idea, panther and jumbo would be same pop. Therefore your pop effectiveness has been ok but not perfect.

And a 0.75 rec pen would be a nurf to jumbo armour.

[TheVolskinator]

+1 pop, church armor.

/thread

[Poppi]

+1 pop, church armor.

/thread

ok theres the nerf...wheres the buff?

Jumbos arent OP enough to make them crappy.

[RikiRude]

You see, the simple fact of the matter is that it is unfair to expect every single axis player to have a panther or above in their builds if they wish to reliably be able to counter the jumbo - a heavy tank that, surprisingly, comes from infantry doctrine.

Of course one could claim "metagame" and ask you "adjust" - but the thing is the sheer existence of the jumbo is not something that is dependant on the metagame - and REQUIRING every axis player to have a certain tank in their builds just so they could potentially counter the jumbo is simply silly - hence we ask that the jumbo be made weaker against the standard AT counters that any wehr or PE player could field against any other company (even RSE or Armour) and still retain adequately efficient at their AT duties.

I think if I'm reading you correct (which im not totally sure if i am), you're saying that axis should not have to adjust their companies to deal with a jumbo. its said either have double pak call ins or throw a panther in your company. I dont want to have 5-6 atgs in my company, plus stickies, but i have to because i have to expect KTs, tigers, and jagds. Or 5-6 atgs on top of m10s. But you know what, that's what allies have to do.

I think adding +1 pop would be fine as well, or make it slightly more expensive. I don't get what the big deal is either way, I get just as many kills on my croc churchs, and people aren't saying nerf! Because people have learned how to counter crocs.

[Poppi]

I think if I'm reading you correct (which im not totally sure if i am), you're saying that axis should not have to adjust their companies to deal with a jumbo. its said either have double pak call ins or throw a panther in your company. I dont want to have 5-6 atgs in my company, plus stickies, but i have to because i have to expect KTs, tigers, and jagds. Or 5-6 atgs on top of m10s. But you know what, that's what allies have to do.

I think adding +1 pop would be fine as well, or make it slightly more expensive. I don't get what the big deal is either way, I get just as many kills on my croc churchs, and people aren't saying nerf! Because people have learned how to counter crocs.

I actually posted something similar. If axis didnt have jagds, tigers, or KTs. I would bring 2 ATGs max(no AP), 2 m10s, and 2 shermans. The rest i can focus with infantry. But since i dont want to get pwnd by heavy axis armor. I bring 4-5 ATGs(AP), 4m10s, 1 m18, and maybe a sherman in there.

Basically spending almost all my fuel and lost of MP and MU just INCASE people do bring tough armor on the ground. They dont have to, which means wasted resources. Has happened.  I know ive seen Axis spend tons of resources on AT support as well, for just in case reasons.

So i guess mysthalin doesnt want to have a diverse company? U can use plenty of more things than just a panther to take out a jumbo. Trust me.

I dont know why the discussion of changing jumbo popped back up. Plenty of other tanks out there that cause more trouble. If u want to change armor b/c stats are super fucked up. Fine. But price increase w/ weaker armor??? Dont nerf the thing

[Mysthalin]

@Riki. You didn't read me correct. Both sides need to buy AT, and that's fine. Being pigeon-holed into buying a very specific kind of AT that is NOT lenient pop-wise to maintain on the battlefield if the target is not there, however (the Panther) - is ridiculous. Double paks may be damaging, but will not ward off a properly used jumbo due to the piss-poor penetration rate. If you wish to have pop-efficient counters, you are forced to go play as defensive - one of the 6 possible doctrines. Which... is... silly.

@Poppi.
1) Yes. Resources need to be spent to buy units to counter other units. That's a fairly simple concept.
2) Notice how what I ask for is the ALLOWANCE of diversity within axis companies in how they are able to cope with the jumbo, as opposed to being pigeon-holed into using some VERY specific units (Pak40s and the heavier tank-based tank destroyers are the only units that can RELIABLY take on the jumbo).
3) Just because other stuff is OP alongside the jumbo does not mean that the jumbo should be allowed to go freely. All problems need to be fixed. Similarly how just because there's starving children in africa doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to cure cancer.
4) Nobody ever mentioned a price increase to the jumbo. Just fix the bloody armour.

[Tymathee]

...that's alot of numbers, reading and bad colors.

ok then, how bout we give it churchill armor, and raise the health to say 836.

It'll still be tough, panthers will absolutely rape it but it'll be more vulnerable to tanks.

[Tymathee]

ok, just played a game where an 88 bounced off the rear of a jumbo twice...just stupid. Funny thing is only time it penetrated the thing is when it was sitting still and repairing and it was still bouncing shots. lol

[Demon767]

ok, just played a game where an 88 bounced off the rear of a jumbo twice...just stupid. Funny thing is only time it penetrated the thing is when it was sitting still and repairing and it was still bouncing shots. lol

<3

[RikiRude]

i dont think ive ever been lucky enough to bounce any rear shots from an 88 lol

[Mister Schmidt]

ok, just played a game where an 88 bounced off the rear of a jumbo twice...just stupid. Funny thing is only time it penetrated the thing is when it was sitting still and repairing and it was still bouncing shots. lol

The 88 has a really really retarded modifier, but we can't change it because it effects Axis Panthers too, and if Allies capture an 88....

The LEiG actually has a better chance of penetrating at long range..
That's irrelevant thought because the 88 has a much longer range anyway.
What bugs me is the Panzershreck & Pak38 front armour penetration rates.

[smurfORnot]

another reason why jumbo armor needs to be changed.

[Tymathee]

The 88 has a really really retarded modifier, but we can't change it because it effects Axis Panthers too, and if Allies capture an 88....

The LEiG actually has a better chance of penetrating at long range..
That's irrelevant thought because the 88 has a much longer range anyway.
What bugs me is the Panzershreck & Pak38 front armour penetration rates.

to be honest schrecks and paks aren't that big of a deal because schrecks are mobile and with the speed of the jumbo it can easily hit the side or rear armor and the jumbo was made to combat schrecks and paks.

It's a damage soaker, real jumbo's used to hit to hit the beach and take on all types of fire from tanks, at guns, 88's, etc so yes i know realism =/= game play BUT it is still historically accurate.

To be honest...i'd rather have a 105 sherman in infantry rather than the jumbo, makes more sense, give jumbo to airborne <shrug> i'd say armor but it doesn't really make sense or u can make it a t3 along with pershing and call it "allied heavy armor" but who would take jumbo over pershing anyway

[skaffa]

Its front armour might need some changes, but the unit is not OP as far as I can see. It doesnt get that many kills, or in a really easy manner (compare to SE PE IST for example), its very expensive which means getting 3 (which is the max) takes up all your fuel pretty much so losing one of these Jumbos is a pretty big blow, therefor rushing into paks in a full frontal assault is not the best way to use it, you might kill the pak, but getting close means you can get flanked easily which means you take lots of damage or maybe just get killed. To get the most out of your invested fuel and mp you still need keep this thing alive for some time, making sure you get some kills. It is still best to avoid ATGs because even tho they wont penetrate much they will still do some dmg, and paks can get couple shots of because its a pretty slow unit. Sitting in front of a pak is not a good idea. The Jumbo can take a lot of hits, its like a battering ram, it can soak up some damage if it walks into a trap where a normal sherman would get owned. The best about the Jumbo is that you can go somewhere, kill infantry take some hits and get away safely if you want too, you can also fight schrecks head on, it has a good defense to stay alive better, a aspect you pay lots of recourses for 540 mp 380 fuel, but its offensive abilities are not that great, while AT units, except for schrecks, are still a deterrent the way I see it. Overall I think this unit is a good unit to use its a strong unit, it might need some tweaks but I dont see the current version being so OP as everyone thinks it is. Also too much theorycrafting going on, pls also use the unit ingame yourself.