Most boring game EVER!

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[RikiRude]

Please, if you watch this, do it in 8x, it's hilarious, you get to see a unique tactic being used called "doing jack shit" it's like watching a chess game! Except almost twice as unexciting, watch the pieces move back and forth!

But really, watch it for the lols.

http://www.mediafire.com/?lsi6lb62o8848j2

I'm about to watch it just to see what was going on.

Colossus - CW... RA or Commandos?
Me - Armor
vs on 2v2 nueville
Gorkali - Derpfensive
Area - Defensive

[RikiRude]

most notable moments:

[hans]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[BigDick]

and what is that moment? - oh wait thats the gag

but i really like gorks companies since weapons cache, yesterday he had a 3xhowi start

[TheArea]

Not doing jackshit?  I dont know but you guys lost a lot of stuff in the first half of the game.   Once the map control difference let you guys outnumber us substantially it was gg.

Did i play badly?  Sure, I think I failed Gork a bit, and didn't push for map control hard enough.  Did Gork play badly?  I dont know, but I do think the jag could have avoided some of those stickies.  

Now did we get out maneuvered on the map? Yes, but is that really so hard to do against two defensive cos that necessarily have some pop sunk into immobile units?

I think the replay highlights how defensive cos suck, and I think we can highlight two factors;

1) The 88 tends to hamstring a company.  In a mod like EiR where mobility is king, and no map (at least that people would want to play) gives the 88 maximum arc of fire, you always gimp yourself by taking it.  Now on paper the 88 is a nice unit, but in-game, at best, it denies area to enemies.  Now that, in and of itself, is OK but because its immobile and requires a healing station since its going to get indirect fire, and at least one unit to guard it, that right there is 12 pop give or take.  So in a 2v2 you now have 1.5 players versus 2 for the rest of the map.  And, if you both happen to be defensive docs... well watch the vid.

Now to my mind I dont think there is another finished doc in EiR that can gimp a team the way defensive can.  For instance, you can take two Terror, Blitz, or US Armor and you dont have the same problem that you have with defensive.  In that, those docs are better suited for an environment like EiR.    

2) The doctrine tree needs to be looked at in this light, and should in some way help defensive cos deal with the reality that they are one step behind in a game built around mobile warfare.  And the 88 only highlights that problem.  

So for example,  unlike the other Wher trees where you have direct buffs to armor and infantry, for def we get our best buffs indirectly through officers.  So unlike blitz and terror where there are plenty of choices to buff your tanks and/or infantry no such choices exist for def.  There is NOT ONE direct buff to armor in def doc except to stugs (gaining hetzer ambush) and sight range buffs.  To underscore the point of how gimped def can be, the top T4 is a buff to installations, i.e. make your immobile units tougher, in a game about mobility.

In any case, the game was just as frustrating to play as it is to watch, but I think part of that has to do with the fact that you have 2 defensive cos...

[hans]

yesterday he had a 3xhowi start

oh really 

[Dnicee]

great post area, did not watch the game but i agree with most of what youre saying!

[NightRain]

People who think 88s are a drag fail to play defensive.

88 is a god's gift and I learned it from Mysthalin, if anytihng the 88 is more than just a simple immobile thing. How I see people use them makes me facepalm. It isn't a front line unit, its a backline unit. You don't build defence around it, you build the defence in FRONT of it. If they rush over it the 88 becomes the best Failsafe unit as it is aiding you from its longrange and hitting enemy armor, infantry and anti tank gear if it tries to come across your front line, if front line collapses you can always retreat back to the 88 and start over again.

Also you can play leapfrog with multiple 88s. Advance push enemy back, build a 88 and stay on guard, watch when enemy counter offencive is blocked by 88. Its awsome.

88s are excellent in everything, but fail in certain maps that are nothing but shot blockers.

If anything Defencive is awsome doctrine. It falls down to Infantry supported by officers. People who think it is doing this. MG, 88, Schreck, LMG are dumb.

[Mister Schmidt]

1. You don't have to take an 88.

2. The game is not about pure mobility, it is about map control too.

3. Defensive doesn't have tank buffs because (gasp) those are not what it focuses on.

There are other dum dum points, but I cba to say them right now.

[GORKHALI]

those cromwells r a inf killer for sure evry shot they fire killed one of my inf like sniper ,...if i had that 88 up i we would have turned the battle around but i build the 88 when there was a fight going on at the same sector so got unlucky

[Demon767]

I respectfully disagree with Area's post.

[TheArea]

Just to be clear, Gork and I didt lose because of an 88, but because of the overall limits of defensive doc.

To Night:

I see your point, but whether you build the 88 in front or behind if people stay out of LoS, and out of range and cap around like in this game, then whatever strategy you want to use with an 88 doesnt matter.  Also, I dont think anyone trys to 88 crawl, its not pop efficient to actually work.  And, I agree 88s are totally at the mercy of the map, one of the things that have always made them meh compared to other unlock units.

To Schmidt:

Ok, so you dont take the 88 what else does defensive doc offer?  The doctrines give medicore buffs to inf and armor when compared to the other wher trees, so in the end, you can choose defensive and not take an 88 AND get crappy buffs too, that just seems fail.  Not only that, but the bottom T3 is at least in part a buff to 88s, so you will most likely have to take one of the top two tree paths, and the top T4 is the buff to installations, so without an 88 your basically locked into having to take the double T3 to officers.  I think this just highlights the limited options in def doc.

Not about mobility, but about map control, doesnt that sound "dum dum"?  Dont you need to be mobile to have map control.  I think the vid showed that much.  The problem is that def doc doesnt have much mobility, or ways to compensate for that lack, when its so important to gaining precisely map control.

So what does defensive focus on?  It gets vanilla tanks, indirect buffs from officer IF there is one on field, and immobile 88s.  The point here is not that defensive needs to buff its armor and make it more like blitz or terror doc, but in EiR when most allied cos do increased damage to armor its a severe limitation to be stuck with vanilla tanks and minimal buffs to inf, and limited mobility.  Its the combination of those things (limited mobility and nothing to compensate for it) that gimp def in a map control environment.

[DarkSoldierX]

Just to be clear, Gork and I didt lose because of an 88, but because of the overall limits of defensive doc.

To Night:

I see your point, but whether you build the 88 in front or behind if people stay out of LoS, and out of range and cap around like in this game, then whatever strategy you want to use with an 88 doesnt matter.  Also, I dont think anyone trys to 88 crawl, its not pop efficient to actually work.  And, I agree 88s are totally at the mercy of the map, one of the things that have always made them meh compared to other unlock units.

To Schmidt:

Ok, so you dont take the 88 what else does defensive doc offer?  The doctrines give medicore buffs to inf and armor when compared to the other wher trees, so in the end, you can choose defensive and not take an 88 AND get crappy buffs too, that just seems fail.  Not only that, but the bottom T3 is at least in part a buff to 88s, so you will most likely have to take one of the top two tree paths, and the top T4 is the buff to installations, so without an 88 your basically locked into having to take the double T3 to officers.  I think this just highlights the limited options in def doc.

Not about mobility, but about map control, doesnt that sound "dum dum"?  Dont you need to be mobile to have map control.  I think the vid showed that much.  The problem is that def doc doesnt have much mobility, or ways to compensate for that lack, when its so important to gaining precisely map control.

So what does defensive focus on?  It gets vanilla tanks, indirect buffs from officer IF there is one on field, and immobile 88s.  The point here is not that defensive needs to buff its armor and make it more like blitz or terror doc, but in EiR when most allied cos do increased damage to armor its a severe limitation to be stuck with vanilla tanks and minimal buffs to inf, and limited mobility.  Its the combination of those things (limited mobility and nothing to compensate for it) that gimp def in a map control environment.

I think your totally underestimating how strong a officer is.

You have any idea how much more DPS 20% acc and 20% dmg is for infantry?

Let me give you a clue. A ton. And that officer is quite survivable.

[marda145]

I think your totally underestimating how strong a officer is.

You have any idea how much more DPS 20% acc and 20% dmg is for infantry?

Let me give you a clue. A ton. And that officer is quite survivable.

The difference is basically like difference between vet 0 and vet 3 rifle (dmg and acc bonuses).

[Hicks58]

Vet 3 Riflemen end up with 15% more accuracy (From vet 2) and 20% more damage (From vet 3).

So the officer buff is actually a little bit better.

[RikiRude]

The problem wasn't the 88, you guys had fantastic control of that side of the map, then you guys... stopped playing, if gork wasnt sitting around building mg bunkers making even more immobile cap, you guys could of done something.

the problem you guys had was not enough infantry on the field, and gork doesnt bring a lot of infantry til it's WAY too late.

easy way to have won that game for you guys? forget the side of the map you had locked down, join together, kill my single rifle squad that was usually holding territory, cap territory, hide units that are holding territory, and you could of easily turned the tide. there were a few times when we lost of territory and colossus and i were like, grab that territory!! we cant lose it! all you guys needed was a couple of troops to sit there and hold territory.

also it's your fault that you were immobile, that 88 should of been practically abandoned by the time you guys were surrounded.

now i do have to say, as far as defensive goes, it's true it does need some buffs, it needs a working top t4, a better middle t4, and some other buffs or abilities changed around. but you guys had a prime example of how not to play defensive, this isnt 3v3 sheldt.

defensive should be played like any other wm company, except you have some awesome ways to fall back.

with bottom T4 you can focus on stukas, or nebels, or make amazing use of mortars and infantry.
or you can go bottom/mid t3, focus on amazing infantry buffs with officer, backed up by arty firing 88s.
also if you dont like 88s get pak 40, those things are deadly, and guess what? they are mobile!


top T4 if it was fully working is doom forty, but this is what you do, lay down an 88, medic bunker, pop an mg in the medic bunker, maybe lay some mines or plant a goliath, then FORGET ABOUT IT! the enemy has two options, try to take over the 88, which will end up with them losing tons of shit in most cases, or they bypass it, which in that case you and your teammates band together and hold ground, for 10-13 pop you have an entire side of the map you dont have to worry about and that also means you can push the enemy into other chokepoints.

also its true 88 is very map dependent, but most maps allow you to make pretty good use of them if you know what you're doing.

[TheArea]

I think your totally underestimating how strong a officer is.

You have any idea how much more DPS 20% acc and 20% dmg is for infantry?

Let me give you a clue. A ton. And that officer is quite survivable.

I see 20% acc in doc description, but I dont see 20% inc damage.

Officer is survivable vs indirect fire, but LVs chew him to pieces.

In any case, your investing all your doc buffs NOT into your co in general, or a general unit class (vehichles, inf, etc), but into a few units which then give the buffs to the rest of your co, is any other doc tree set up that way?

Meaning no officers on field or in range and no doc buffs, seems like a risky way to invest your pp as compared to the other doc trees.

[EliteGren]

AFAIK it's 25% accuracy and 20% damage. With bottom T3 it's 35% accuracy and 30% damage

[RikiRude]

officer buffing a p4 is pretty much better than getting mid/bottom T3s for blitz.

officer with dual t3 buffing a P4 is way better than dual t3s from blitz when dealing with infantry, you dont get that extra penetration vs vehicles, but the damage bonus is twice as good!

so sure you have to keep an eye on your officer, but with proper support he's going to make himself more than worth it!

[Poppi]

People who think 88s are a drag fail to play defensive.

88 is a god's gift and I learned it from Mysthalin, if anytihng the 88 is more than just a simple immobile thing. How I see people use them makes me facepalm. It isn't a front line unit, its a backline unit. You don't build defence around it, you build the defence in FRONT of it. If they rush over it the 88 becomes the best Failsafe unit as it is aiding you from its longrange and hitting enemy armor, infantry and anti tank gear if it tries to come across your front line, if front line collapses you can always retreat back to the 88 and start over again.

your right
this tactic is way more affective than just building everything around an 88.  Having a front or def line in front of the 88 means extra sight range and when allies advance they got 2 line of attack coming at them. Plus makes it arty saturation less effective.