Addressing the viability of medium armour

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[pqumsieh]

Nope

[Spartan_Marine88]

general consenus

Counts even more when those who agree still play the mod

[NightRain]

Where is the problem? The crush isn't the issue really...Hellcat already has a high accuracy versus infantry and will snipe off a man quite often. Ask Shab, he uses those things.

If anything their price should just go upward to make them less cost effective versus mediums.

[skaffa]

Reduce inf sniping from M10, M18 and Panther.

When it comes to crushing you should test no crush on the Hellcat. It has 46 sight so it does not even have to get close. If this was tried I doubt there would be many problems with it. Even the Roo which had to get close got his crush removed and I never really noticed any 'blocking' problems or hate topics about it.

[Hicks58]

Did you miss this Hicks?  
I personally dont like changing any unit stats, unless its your last resort, LAST RESORT, as in you need to repopulate the earth and the only people left is you, and smokaz. Atleast you'll try and make it work.

No Demon, I didn't miss it.

But I'm not a person who is opposed to changing unit stats. EiRR is a different environment to vCoH. Treating them the same is like tying a leash to your cat and taking it for a walk. Sure, you could do it, but there'd be pages of reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea.

[tank130]

@ Tank and his comment regarding vCOH and EIR. <sarcasm> You are totally right, there are almost zero differences between this mod and vCOH. We aren't using similar unit designs, the same combat systems, the same unit AI, or any of the other features inherent within vCOH...I don't get why people even try to compare the two...its madness </sarcasm>

I realize you are being sarcastic.....lol
but that train of thought would be the same as saying a Mac and a PC are the same.
They both use the same little processors, micro chips, motors for drives, circuit boards, LED's, plastic, glass, the list goes on.

but in the end, they are very much different because of the way they are operated.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Sure, you could do it, but there'd be pages of reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea.

Bad example Hicks, there are alot of people who do that

[tank130]

Bad example Hicks, there are alot of people who do that

yup, a lot of people. Looks stupid as fuck..... but yup, a lot of people

[Ahnungsloser]

Crushing is really easy to counter. You had to give the Squad rapidly movements orders and it will be a funny blocking festival.

It's really weird when i asked to nerf the Tellermines because they have the ability to instagib a vehicle. At the end i was the stupid noob
and had to bring a Minesweeper Squad to counter it and i'm L2P. - Fine.

A Commandos player asked a few questions and asked why the Demo Charges are so shitty. They are visible, you need a expensive Squad
to plant them and they deal less damage. - Then a lot of players cryed about the Demo Charges beacuse they could insta gib Squads and Blobs.
L2P is now a invalid argument. Deeper views into the target/cover table and a comparism with a Goliath shows some disadvantages of the Demo Charges.
But it was to late and nobody answered to it anymore.


Now here a some guys who are complaining about crushing. I parked my KCH in the middle of nowhere and a angry M10 crushed them?
It's obvious that the crush needs a nerf right now, even tough you can counter it without ressources and just with micro.
The argumentations in this forum makes no sense. Ramboing with a M10 and hitting a tellermine is L2P, but ramboing/parking a KCH and getting owned by a crushing M10 needs a nerf.

[Hicks58]

Bad example Hicks, there are alot of people who do that

If you take a look out of your window, you'll also come to the conclusion that there are a lot of people who are irreversibly stupid.

In fact my example holds even more water because of the amount of stats purists we have floating here tbh.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Crushing is really easy to counter. You had to give the Squad rapidly movements orders and it will be a funny blocking festival.

This does not exist. Giving squads rapid movements will result in them getting crushed, do you play this game?

I mean its common fucking knowledge that stopping units and doing nothing is your best chance.

[Hicks58]

Best way to prevent crush is to stop the squad as the vehicle approaches. If it stops in the middle of your squad, move in the opposite direction of the vehicle's motion with the largest portion of the squad if it's possible. If you are caught in a tight spot, wait until he makes an opening then go for it.

[Ahnungsloser]

This does not exist. Giving squads rapid movements will result in them getting crushed, do you play this game?

I mean its common fucking knowledge that stopping units and doing nothing is your best chance.

I do it with the movement orders and im still fine with this. Maybe I got just lucky, who knows. (Have seen this in a X-Fire livecast)

[NightRain]

GUYS THE CRUSH IS NEVER THE ISSUE

THE ISSUE IS TD'S Being TOO, POWERFUL so that THEY make medium tanks ABSOLUTELY OBSOLETE while being CHEAPER and FASTER in EVERY ASPECT OF A TANK. Plus they have more range and Hellcat has 46 line of sight along with Ambush.

[Tymathee]

here's the question though. If you do make tank destroyers less destructive vs meds, what about long range AT, it really hampers shermans and stuff

[nikomas]

Hahaha, Yeah, even if crush gets changed it really wont change anything for the medium tanks...

[NightRain]

Hahaha, Yeah, even if crush gets changed it really wont change anything for the medium tanks...

Exactly

I don't even understand how this crush became an issue in the first place when it never really were.

[smurfORnot]

why dont we give crush to everything? Marders,AC's,pumas,stuarts,stags...I mean,they are vehichles,that would have no problem running over people. + it would add co much more tactical stuff you have to do. BEfore anyone says OP,everyone would have access to them so,as someone posted counter to m10 crus,well,place some mines and atg's 
I always wanted do drive puma around saying nomnomnom! 

[nikomas]

I don't even understand how this crush became an issue in the first place when it never really were.

Crush came out of this discussion and now has it's own thread, seperate issues both worth discussing.
Now lets get back to making me want to put PzIV's back in my coy eh? 

[Ahnungsloser]

There are a lot of facts why EIR is lacking at the amount of medium armor on the battlefield. The Sherman has pretty weak main gun
against vehicles and if I buy the M1A1C Upgun I lose 50% of the Area Of Effect of it and i can't still do a shit against heavier tanks. If the Axis
Player buys skirts for his Tank I get a additional -10% damage modifier against StuG, PIV and Panther. (And the StuG has +50% Damage against a Sherman) Even though the Sherman is to slow and clumby to hunt down a light vehicle so that it's better to save the ressources and i bring a M10 plus a M8 for nearly the same price. With the M10 you can counter a PIV, StuG and has the ability finish-off any heavier vehicle with low health. It's a perfect tank for Jihad Suicide Missions because you won't cry if you lose it. ("Low Costs")


The conclusion is that the Axis field less Panzer IV because the Allied will bring a shit load of Tank Destroyer. In vCoh the M10/M18 is a counter to the Panzer IV  (The M10/M18 has a +25% Damage Modifier against a Panzer IV and some other Vehicles), Sticky Bombs and the M9 Bazooka doing a good job against a Panzer IV (Even if it's skirtet) and with the tons of ATGs and M10s it's better to avoid the Panzer IV.
If you spend some more Ressources you get Panther and with the skirts it's possible to "disable" the most Infantry bases AT (Bazookas has only a 10%/65% penetration chance (front/back )and even if one shot penetrates a none buffed Bazooka deals only ~85 Damage) and you can counter a M10 or a lighter vehicles because it's really speedy. Even a 57mm has just a 0.43/0.31/0.29 (Panzer IV have 0.93/0.675/0.637) penetration chances, so that your not totally off-guard if you face an ATG. And if you're good you can squish Infantry and even the maingun has some nice Infantry sniping abilities so that you get a more reliable plattform for the battlefields.


Just some thoughts about some statistics and the possible reasons for the lacking field presence of medium armor. Conclusion:
Panzer IV - If I spend more ressources I'm better equiped in the most cases. (Panther)
M4 Sherman- I can spend nearly the same ammount of ressources to get more specialized units. (M8 - AI/-ALV; M10 -AT)

And both isn't preconceived  because we see shit loads of Panther and M10s and the EIR Battlefields.