Map Review

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[hans]

No tank. You're wrong, it's the other way around. Everyone is playing the new maps, unless forced to play one of the old maps.

playing alone does not support the map improvement process tbh. Give feedback about problems, in detail if possible.

[LeoPhone]

yep, totally done here. What was I expecting anyway, result out of a forum discussion?

I hope I at least showed how badly this thread made my brain hurt since it made me post(constructively) on the EIR forums, something I haven't done for a while.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I agree with Leo on a number of things here. I also think  the accusation that he wasn't making good arguments isn't fair. He was genuinely trying to explain his opinion and he made cogent arguments (whether everyone agrees with them or not) that should at least be considered instead of dismissed offhandedly. I don't think it was fair to flame them.

Here's why:


1. Neuville was made and rose to become successful in the exact same climate we have now.  

Leo is right about this. When Skaffa released Neuville all anyone wanted to play was Tanteville, Bocage etc. He made a map that, simply put, was really, really conducive to the kind of gameplay the majority of EiR's playerbase likes. As a result, after a few shorts days/weeks Neuville became one of the top played maps. It was good enough to compete with well established favourites -- it got no free rides or leg ups to help it do that. It earned it.

It wasn't because the current top maps of the time were removed, it was because Neuville was as good as or better than those maps.

The reason none of the new maps have done this yet is because they're not as good as Neuville, or at least the majority of the EIR playerbase doesn't think so.

Does that mean they can't ever be? With reworks and updates they can be gradually improved based on feedback and ideally played more down the road.

2. Most of the new maps aren't very good

Now before I go any further let me preface this:

It is fantastic that people put in the time, effort and exhausting work to make maps for EiR. I've spent dozens of hours making a map of my own so I know how grueling it is and how many steps there are. From concept to creation, to making it capable of being played by other people with all the organizing of files etc. -- it can be a nightmare. We're lucky that we have so many people in EiR that take on this challenge.

With all that being said, many of the new maps right now are not very good as far as EiR gameplay is concerned. My map was made with the intention to challenge EiR gameplay and thus I knew it wouldn't be very competitive playcount wise, but since the intention of the mapmakers of this new bunch are looking to create highly played maps they are more bound to these basic conventions. Unfortunately many of the new maps aren't meeting them.

 Some of them seem rushed and hastily thrown together when at their core is a good idea (Eagletons), some of them have fundamental gameplay design features (dense, realistic, awesome city blocks) that will likely make a good portion of the EIR playerbase avoid them (Adaire) even though in actuality they are good maps, and others are works in progress that, if the maker continues to upgrade them based on feedback, could become great.

What EiR has working in its favour right now is that many of these mappers want their map to be the next Neuville, so they are driven by low play numbers to make their map better.

But removing the top maps right now would harm this process -- it just creates an artificial lack of natural selection that is more likely to harm the evolution of a map by removing the harsh feedback of low plays that drives people to improve their design.

Ultimately the EiR community votes with the play counts of maps.

[PonySlaystation]

Except, the new maps are getting played relentlessly and they are given a lot of praise for being so good.

[Masacree]

I am seriously considering removing the highest played maps for a week, just to get some rotation happening.

As soon as tank makes a pretty little map, here come the fucking map fascists...

[GORKHALI]

fucking wasted my free time to make a map so that eir players can enjoy but insted none appreciates but hate everywhere  

tank130 , u shouldn't have started making maps anyway ,u know how this community works and communicate ,wat do u expect... u give them flower u will recive trash , heed my word for u best will spare ur free time doing some other thing u like then wasting ur time making maps for eir..and u will be happier then ever ,.look at the facts how community reacted sice u started making maps and after the update of the maps,this is a very hostile community.....i don't want to be rude but it is the fact

[PonySlaystation]

gorkhali is the EIR drama queen

[GORKHALI]

gorkhali is the EIR drama queen

get lost u noob

[tank130]

As soon as tank makes a pretty little map, here come the fucking map fascists...

No; actually Masacree when tank came along and decided to take on the job as map lead, because the community was crying no one was doing it, he decided the map scene needed some help. He realized that no one is going to be willing to create new maps if a a small minority of cry babies was not willing to give a new map a try.

What amazes me is, Eirr was in action with it's highest player base ever - before Nueville or Tanteville were ever created. Yet somehow there are people here who think the world will end if it is removed for a week.

With people like Leo spreading the word that a map sucks, when he hasn't even played it, we are not going to have anyone stepping up to help our creative departments.


@ Wind: I somewhat agree with you, but there is a large whole in your theory.

Does that mean they can't ever be? With reworks and updates they can be gradually improved based on feedback and ideally played more down the road.

The maps are not getting played, to create feedback. People like Leo and others, prejudge the maps and refuse to play them. In the game lobby, a couple of people like Leo say no, so the map gets changed to something else because "we just want to play the game"

The game you and I argued about is a perfect example. Regardless of my actions to leave, the reason for my leaving is a typical example of the issue. At that time, there had been zero plays on D-Day. Two players in the game requested the map. One guy freaks out and says no, I won't play a beach map. Besides, I heard it sucks.

His opinion was based on hearsay (although the map had never been played) and a fear of trying something new. So the map does not get played, no feed back is generated, and the rumors continue that the map sucks.

How does that behavior and situation benefit the mod? How does supporting and continuing that behavior motivate other mappers to put their work forward?

[PonySlaystation]

get lost u noob

ok... 

[PonySlaystation]

Tank, you are overreacting, the new maps are getting played, plus a little competition is healthy, also Wind and Leo are the kind of persons who would go into dispute over anything. They would duel to the death over the correct abbreviation of cocoa.

[tank130]

I did not want this thread to turn into a discussion about specific maps. I sure as the hell did not want my maps to be the focal point, but Leo has made a point of outright bullshitting about the maps.

Leo's screen shot analysis of DDay:

other side - too close to the middle to flank, not really open either. on neuville the sides are far enough from the center to flank unnoticed and open to prevent pathing fuckups and allow free movement.

Left flank of Neuville:



Left Flank of DDay



Opps....... what's that Leo. Those two flanks look a lot alike.....could it be..... holy fuck, the left flank is a stamp. It;s exactly the same flank. How could that be, you said the DDay flank is not big enough.

I have played EIR a lot, I have mapped for EIR and know the dimensions, I understand the success of neuville. I can tell a lot by just looking at the pictures. Skaffa can explain how to design an entire map without even having a map to work with.

Apparently you have lost your touch for judging a map based on screen shots. No worries, everyone gets a little out of practice. I just hope from now on you actually play a map before passing such strong opinions.


Just for the laughs, lets have a look at the city center everyone is having a cry about...

What's this:



Well, well, well,... that folks is the city center of tanteville. The second most played map in the history of Eirr.

What's this:



That's the fucked up city center of D-Day..... but what..... hold on just a second.... fuck me, if I  put just a little less space between those buildings..... no way, it can't be. That cluster fuck called Dday, is an amended stamp of Tanteville.

The only problem is the map maker left off some detail. Unfortunately the map maker listened to this guy:

thats one of the things that makes neuville good:
no unnecessary pathing fuckups. there is enough cover.

So the map maker left off the detail that would make the map better according to this guy:

center - No cover for infantry to fight in. neuville does have super cover in the middle.

uh-oh.... same guy.....hmmmmmm

Perhaps we need to stop prejudging maps and actually play them.....

[EIRRMod]

I did not want this thread to turn into a discussion about specific maps. I sure as the hell did not want my maps to be the focal point, but Leo has made a point of outright bullshitting about the maps.

<Snip cos it was the previous post>

Perhaps we need to stop prejudging maps and actually play them.....

/Slow clap

Good response.  If you havent played the map, dont comment on it.

[tank130]

Tank, you are overreacting, the new maps are getting played

The numbers do not appear to support that claim.
Since the start of this thread, here are the stats

Beginning of thread
Total maps played played - 5108
Adaire - 43
Egletons - 9
TROAMDECAEN - 6
D-Day - 6
Mcgechaenswar - 2

As of this post
Total maps played played - 5463
Adaire - 44
Egletons - 11
TROAMDECAEN - 6
D-Day - 7
Mcgechaenswar - 2

That means out of the last 355 games, 4 were on new maps......... I have troubles accepting you saying the maps are getting played. I guess technically you are right, but we are not getting real feedback on those numbers.

[aeroblade56]

The numbers do not appear to support that claim.
Since the start of this thread, here are the stats

Beginning of thread
Total maps played played - 5108
Adaire - 43
Egletons - 9
TROAMDECAEN - 6
D-Day - 6
Mcgechaenswar - 2

Considering there is like 4 games a day hahah. i call that good.

As of this post
Total maps played played - 5463
Adaire - 44
Egletons - 11
TROAMDECAEN - 6
D-Day - 7
Mcgechaenswar - 2

That means out of the last 355 games, 4 were on new maps......... I have troubles accepting you saying the maps are getting played. I guess technically you are right, but we are not getting real feedback on those numbers.

[tank130]

Something that came up in another thread that I think needs some thought:

1. Neuville was made and rose to become successful in the exact same climate we have now. 

Partly true, but neuville became popular in the same environment.

Nueville was NOT introduced in the same environment. It was introduced before the Warmap. That means it was not influenced by attack/defend modes. Those modes could be picked, but no one ever picked them.

Now you are often forced to play attack/defend because of the warmap.

What I have found is it is very difficult to play these modes on a map you know nothing about. For example, when you play Neuville for the 900 hundredth time, you know exactly where your opponent will be and exactly how to attack or avoid them.
On a new, never played before map, this becomes a nightmare. You get clusterfucked not knowing the best route to take, where to gather your forces or where to flank.

I have played D-Day 3 times. All 3 times I was attacking. All 3 times I spawned from the top. There is no way I or anyone else can get a true understanding of the map with that experience.

I am not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this topic, but I think it needs to be seriously considered when making comparisons.

[hans]

they said that my map is good and fun to play on but except the 4 test games before release it got played 2 times without giving feedback about pathing issues in detail. The only thing i get to know is that rumours are out there letting guys avoid my map.

If its only the issue with the pathing and just a reducement of some obstacles, why the fuck do u mark it as a bad map?? I know why, coz u havent played it yet and therefore no idea.

iam sry that i only focus on that map, but that actually referes to the other new maps too.

i also made a new topic about these issues. no one responses coz no one plays it. And i guess it will stay there for the next weeks.

And every player, i had a good mix of pro and medium ones, agreed on liking the map. Now the pathing issue remains and can be done easy with help, u decide to stop and just remain silent or mark it as a bad map.

We should put the first 10 maps out of the map list tbh. For a week i guess. I mean if we test it, lets see the results.

[Unkn0wn]

I just wanted to make a quick comment on the whole map appreciation process. We should not forget that while it is certainly true some maps simply don't receive the exposure they need for them to become appreciated by the community, because of said community's flawed preconceptions on a given map, or its rigid stance towards what maps it wants to play, SOME maps have only over time attained received their well deserved popularity. A map that comes to mind here is Leo's Bergen, which nobody wanted to play for a long time when it was first introduced but then several weeks or even months down the road did become one of the more popular 2vs2 maps in the end. (I remember being one of the first players to push for playing Bergen in 2vs2s because from my perspective there really was nothing wrong with the map)

Thus certain more established and active players can play a very big role in the map appreciation process and sometimes just time itself can too, as community map preferences do tend to slowly shift over time. Personally I don't think 'forcing' this process is a good step. If you remove Neuville people will just go play Tanteville, Bocage or Abbeville. What's important is that we as developers work out a system to promote or encourage new maps being played, through the warmap as well as that certain more active and established community players take up their responsibility and give new maps at least the initial exposure they deserve. (And then ideally also provide feedback for the mapper. I see Wind is doing this, which is great, but more should follow his example)

[XIIcorps]

Reward points for everyone who plays new maps, and gives constructive feedback

[Hicks58]

Reward points for everyone who plays new maps, and gives constructive feedback

Great, where's mine for play-testing and giving feedback on Hans' map? o.o