Balance? Balance.

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[XIIcorps]

Did you check the numbers for the SP's current reload for what it actually is in the game? It seems to me to be definitely much faster than 6 whole seconds, or maybe that is a buff it gains with vet? Without the doctrine abilities, no matter how many buffs it gets with vet, it would literally not be a serious concern for anyone in the community. The shooting and moving while repairing is extremely powerful, but on the SP it's just outright broken. And as I've said, the TA can move like a jeep: absurd. Plus the TA gets to pop blitzkrieg 3 times and dip the scene as it chooses. Both of these units also get two repair kits with doctrines. Clearly the doctrinal buffs are the issue. I'm not even concerned about them having their crazy vet buffs if they don't process the doctrinal buffs.

get corsix, open eir  find 90mm pershing gun check reload speed will br 6 seconds.

[omgNiko]

get corsix, open eir  find 90mm pershing gun check reload speed will br 6 seconds.

I hear ya, it must've just left a strong impression on me that I was mistaken about the reload. Regardless, any of its stats are tolerable as long as it isn't getting doctrine buffs.

[tank130]

So its the attrition thats the problem with the SP.

Having OBM makes it impossible to attrition the unit.

As for the TA how does lightning war possibly compare ?
Stacking with blitz to give you limited bursts of 6.5 speed ?

After reading this and Hick's wall of text, you may be on to a fair point here. Moving shooting and repairing is pretty fucking broken as he said. Add that to a unit that takes an UN-proportional amount of resources to take out and it is simply retarded.

Reworking the vet tables is probably a lot of work that no one really wants to do, or will take months to ever see. I don;t think anyone here is really in the mood to watch another 2 months of nothing while we debated the vet on a unit or how to rework it for this specific unit.

Just remove the doc abilities and lets get on with playing some games. It seriously frustrates the hell out of me that everyone wants to reinvent the wheel and debate for 10 pages and 6 weeks when a simple flip of a switch literally fixes 90% of the issue.

[omgNiko]

So its the attrition thats the problem with the SP.

Having OBM makes it impossible to attrition the unit.

As for the TA how does lightning war possibly compare ?
Stacking with blitz to give you limited bursts of 6.5 speed ?

You're right that it doesn't compare, but it MOVES AS FAST AS A JEEP when combined with Lightning War. I'm not nearly as concerned from a balance perspective when compared with the Armour Doctrine double tier 3's on the SP, but REALLY FFS?! Plus Blitzkrieg to pop when it needs to escape danger. Although not equal, the similarities couldn't have not dawned on you.

[XIIcorps]

You're right that it doesn't compare, but it MOVES AS FAST AS A JEEP when combined with Lightning War. I'm not nearly as concerned from a balance perspective when compared with the Armour Doctrine double tier 3's on the SP, but REALLY FFS?! Plus Blitzkrieg to pop when it needs to escape danger. Although not equal, the similarities couldn't have not dawned on you.

There's no similarity between Blitz+LW and OBM+Expertengies.

Nothing compares to OBM.

The TA for all its strengths is still hopeless vs RRs n Smoke.

[Hicks58]

Actually a vet 3 TA can shit all over an RR charge in smoke by just driving up to it and popping it's S-Mines. Considering RR's have the same penetration front and back, you don't even have to worry about exposing your ass in the process. After that, you just keep backing up and wait for the smoke to sod off and then eat up the AB with your lulzy HE rounds of doom piece by piece.

Also, if my wall of text was read properly including the TL;DR part at the end, you'll have noticed that I mentioned the TA suffers from the same problems as the SP. I simply couldn't be fucked pulling it apart after I just pulled apart the SP.

Honestly, I've never liked EiRR's repair method anyhow. Always wanted it to go back to Engineers, just more refined than the old ways - IE actually using leftover MU in a company to use for repairs on your Engineers and the such rather than just having unlimited repairs so long as you keep your guys in one piece. That's a completely different discussion in itself though.

As for the SP specifically, get rid of it's incoming penetration buffs at vet3/4 and replace them with incoming damage buffs of the same quality (Yeah, sure, it'll still take a beating but it'll still progressively go down to it's actual counters) and then disable it's ability to move, shoot and repair. All fixed. The TA I'll look at when I can be arsed - Speaking of which, are it's AP/HE rounds still bugged to shit in certain circumstances? Haven't used one for a bit.

[omgNiko]

I agree with you, Hicks and XIIcorps. But Tank may be right in also disabling the TA's doc's for now and seeing how it affects things. The difference is that we can re-integrate the TA's buffs later, whereas the SP won't be getting its  OBM+Expertengies back. Does a regular Tiger with Lightning War move at the same speed or is the TA slightly faster?

[omgNiko]

bump; lets see these changes get implemented.

[XIIcorps]

bump; lets see these changes get implemented.

By ?

[omgNiko]

By ?

Tank's offered to implement the changes once Nikomas sends it to him, since Nikomas isn't able to log into the server at the moment. The fix is fast.

[Tachibana]

If it does happen, please add Villers-Bocage back to map rotation while you guys are at it. Tired of all 4v4's happening on Carentan or Schjindel.

[Hicks58]

The amount of whining people that can't handle an urban map irritates me to no end. Re-add Villers Bocage and give us the option tbh.

Best part is, I like it as both axis and allies, but everybody cries "OH NO WE CANT DO THAT YOU MUST BE RUNNING PIATS OR STICKIES". But then they'll grab an open as shit map for 88's, lol.

[chefarzt]

So whats the new news?

[XIIcorps]

The amount of whining people that can't handle an urban map irritates me to no end. Re-add Villers Bocage and give us the option tbh.

Best part is, I like it as both axis and allies, but everybody cries "OH NO WE CANT DO THAT YOU MUST BE RUNNING PIATS OR STICKIES". But then they'll grab an open as shit map for 88's, lol.

Piats are lol at the best of times, and stickies arent dangerous till Vet 2.

Rule of thumb vet 2 rifles stay away from.

[Hobomancer]

Tbh the tace is fine even with say BK + dub repairs + heat rounds t4 after all if you dislike someone having a tace you just go airborne and get some rrs an AB rifles with stickies ( which i think AB rifles shouldnt get simply because it is just grief )  tocounter it.

[XIIcorps]

Tbh the tace is fine even with say BK + dub repairs + heat rounds t4 after all if you dislike someone having a tace you just go airborne and get some rrs an AB rifles with stickies ( which i think AB rifles shouldnt get simply because it is just grief )  tocounter it.

Oath the amount of times ive lost a regualr tiger due to AB rifles with stickies dropping on top of it and it getting stuck is bullshit.

[Hobomancer]

Oath the amount of times ive lost a regualr tiger due to AB rifles with stickies dropping on top of it and it getting stuck is bullshit.

This, and aces die just the same way and the smine launcher is not an effective detterent/counter since only AB rifleman needs to survive toget the insta sticky off.

[omgNiko]

its only necessary the SP doesn't get doc's, and the TA would be worth evaluating without doc's that make it faster than a jeep yo

[Hobomancer]

its only necessary the SP doesn't get doc's, and the TA would be worth evaluating without doc's that make it faster than a jeep yo

Yeah, But i mean, Its not like such a doctrine actually has any effect once you run over a mine or someone lands airborne rifles in your backfield to sticky you, HEAT rounds BK and Dub repair is pretty much the most powerful doctrinal you're going to find for a tiger ace, And i can tell you right now that even that doesnt enter the realms of overpowered the SP does, Simply because of a combination of allied offmaps (Bombing run/Rocket run) That can force you to retreat the tank before utilizing your two repairs, And the airborne doctrine, With instant explosion sticky bombs and 20% plus pen RR's its one of the easiest way to take down any SH/H tank And if you cant completely kill you'll have killed the engine which leaves it vulnerable to aforementioned offmaps, And also forces it to expend one repair regardless of how much health it has, If doctrinals are going to be removed for the tiger ace then i think it only fair to have LATHT's and dub panzershreck tankbusters that can airdrop and fireup no?, My point is, The two tanks face very different opposition and the only one of them that faces something that can fuck it up with any real sense of certainty is the tiger ace, And that is mostly because of sticky bombs, I guess sticky bombs are sort of fine, If you didnt get them on AB rifles and regular rifles didnt get the range increase at v2. Anyway i think that that is the chief reason the SP is generally viewed as being orders of magnitude of OP greater than anything in the game, Simply the fact that the axis has no airborne sticky bomb rr combo to fight it.

Just my 2 swedish kroner.

[Tachibana]

So, what you're saying is, bring back cloaking double shreck storms.

On a serious note though, PE is full of the stuff you're talking about. LATHT is like a reuseable sticky, rx-7, henshel runs, at nades, teller mines.