Faction-wide issues

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[Hicks58]

Scotzmen has kindly put up indivdual faction threads, but I feel that there are some issues which are shared between all four factions and could use looking at as a whole.

For example, abilities at vet 1. This was introduced during my time as Balance Lead as a proof of concept, alongside a large reduction in exp requirements so that units which relied upon certain abilities weren't shafted. After some time, a few units simply got their abilities back from the get-go, or were reintroduced in an altered state.

However, the question remains, does the new system work? Would it be better to go back to the old purchasable upgrades? Should these abilities simply become part of the units as a base?

Unit vet 1 Abilities is one such topic that is faction-wide, feel free to bring up others.

[XIIcorps]

works for some, but in large its means you have to throw a game to gain abilities.

Cromwells need flank speed from the get go, its their niche.
Mandos need smoke to get the funk outa dodge.
Paks needed cloak to be Pak's

But

AB dont need fireup from the get go with their drop anywhere fuck anything playstyle.
Pe sprint for freeeeeee at vet 1 just see's hordes of Pgrens trolololing across the field gibbing shit.

[Scotzmen]

Unit: medium tanks

This is an age old discussion but something really has to be done. I'm not entirely sure what, as they are well suited for their job, but it's always better to just go with either light tanks or heavy tanks.

I suggest heavy tanks becoming more tank hunting and less infantry effective, or if they specialize in infantry hunting,  take away their ability to hurt tanks effectively.  The same with LV's. Mediums will fill that gap, like they should, between the two. Also, maybe giving the P4 HE and AP shells like the Sherman would be an idea

[Hicks58]

Shermans having HE/AP is a single doctrine selection. Better comparison would be the TA's HE/AP selection though, as the AP rounds can't harm infantry worth a damn, and HE can't do too much vs tanks.

Honestly, the issue with mediums is the MU cost involved. A minor FU reduction might be in order, but only to the degree of 10-20 FU a pop because tbh it's the MU that hurts company composition the most.

If you get mediums, you're essentially throwing away your MU based AT if you are intending to keep support weapons or AI equipped infantry. Having low ATG/HHAT counts alongside mediums is a quick route to a loss.

An Armour or Blitz coy Sherman/PzIV with dual repairs will easily go in excess of 170 MU, a standard one hitting the 100 MU mark.

There's also the pop requirements for it. LV's are in a pretty happy place at the 8 pop mark, and can be used to supplement your force nicely. Mediums sit at 12 pop and must become the core of your force. Heavies go at the 14-18 range, but have the presence to be worth the pop investment. Might be an idea to see how they fare at 10 pop.

There's also the repair mechanics which honestly are not kind to mediums when compared to lights and heavies. Lights usually have the speed to get away and make a quick repair, whilst heavies have the sheer health to stick around for a good while before the need to bug out and repair arises. Mediums though? 50% hp means you're now at risk of instant death to a focused effort and you've gotta be ready to pull back and repair on the next hit - which takes a fair bit of time, especially if you're having to cycle through multiple mediums throughout a game.

To be fair though, repair mechanics have long been overdue for an overhaul. The repair kits introduced always felt like a stop-gap measure as tradition vCoH repairs wasn't balanced for EiRR at the time.

[Scotzmen]

So what i gather from you opinion is that:
1. Mediums aren't justifiable at their current Munitions cost to kit out, due to then having a lack of AT or AI upgrades for other units.

2. Their pop also makes them a core part of you on field units and also launcher part.

3. Repair kits not as viable to mediums as they are with heavies and lights.

[Hicks58]

Pretty much, but honestly, mediums would see much more utility from a better repair system anyhow.

Back when I was Balance Lead I toyed around with the idea of bringing back repairs via Engineers (And equivalents), however their repairs would cost ingame munitions to use and you'd have to assign munitions from your company to your munition pool ingame. It'd be then completely down to the player how much repairs they want, and how much they'd use on a given unit.

Things like Tread Break and mine spam wouldn't be so bad if you could just spare 20 MU or so for a spot fix and then have the vehicle carry on, and you could use bulk amounts for full repairs. Salvaging from wrecks could become a universal ability for Engineers/Pios/Sappers/Kettens to recycle wrecks for MU... So on and so forth. Opens up much more tactical flexibility and helps stray from the standard headbutt each other until somebody runs dry.

[Scotzmen]

Thing is, that would all be launcher side, which no one knows how to do.

Could we put the repair ability on uses and just give enginerr units the repair upgrade but instead of repairing themselves, they would instead be uses to repair units. However many you buy, is the amount you get on that engineer unit

Im trying to thing of a way to do it code wise, rather than launcher side.

[Tachibana]

Alternatively, if you guys were able to code it so that the broken down repair kits from PE tankhunters could somehow be applied to p4's and sherman, could also work.

[nikomas]

Turn medium tanks into glass cannons I say!

*Waves nuke flag*

[Hicks58]

Thing is, that would all be launcher side, which no one knows how to do.

Could we put the repair ability on uses and just give enginerr units the repair upgrade but instead of repairing themselves, they would instead be uses to repair units. However many you buy, is the amount you get on that engineer unit

Im trying to thing of a way to do it code wise, rather than launcher side.

Yeah I get ya. We do really need to break away from kits at some point though, as it's a poor system for the design of EiRR tbh.

[nikomas]

No repairs, only critical fixes!

*Waves revolutionary flag in other hand*!

[Scotzmen]

OKay. So i found a tutorial that would allow using tank crews to garrison crews. Making the vehicle operate without said crew, is something I'd have to figure out. Can we make things such as movement and combat have requirements or they don't work?

However way we do this, it'll require some launcher work.

What i can see being easiest, is giving all factions a tank crew, completely free, won't be armed, cannot cap etc, and just selecting the tank and right clicking the squad as if you want them to hit the field with the tank crew inside just like with transports.

Then we run the risk of people putting normal squads in. Can we limit that through the launcher or not?

[Mister Schmidt]

I did this before, years ago, I can't remember exactly how but you basically turn the tank into a half track with a crew, and the crew and tank both have vet, so you can retreat the crew and retain vet.

It's tough to make work, I remember that much

[Scotzmen]

Damn, you got them to share vet? That would be something i wouldn't know how to do...

If you can remember how you did all that, PM me!

[XIIcorps]

Damn, you got them to share vet? That would be something i wouldn't know how to do...

If you can remember how you did all that, PM me!

Might be worth looking at the Blitz mod, they have i think a unit called commanders.

The tank still operates tho without them, just they give vet buffs, but it would be a good start as to how tanks are coded to have crew garrison slots.

Then i guess you could look towards making tank crew a requirement for combat and movement, it could be as simple as adding parents to those requirements, or impossible.

RGD's scare me.

[Hicks58]

Damn, you got them to share vet? That would be something i wouldn't know how to do...

If you can remember how you did all that, PM me!

Also worth noting that I had an old thread in the dev balance forums which detailed a possible RGD based solution to allowing tanks to "bail out" when the retreat button is hit.

Can't remember what was in it, but there may be something of use there.

[Hobomancer]

Also worth noting that I had an old thread in the dev balance forums which detailed a possible RGD based solution to allowing tanks to "bail out" when the retreat button is hit.

Can't remember what was in it, but there may be something of use there.

I've read something about that, Dont you need an animator for it though?

[Hicks58]

If you want an actual bail out animations, yes.

If you just want them to unload crew like a standard transport, which would be fit for purpose, then no.

[Scotzmen]

Alright, had a chat with Skaffa. Heres what we got

Recon units. For you know, recon. But barely anyone brings them. Skaffa pointed out that they cost to much population to actually warrant forgoing other units for sake of firepower.

On of two ways we suggested to fix this:

Reduce pop of recon units by 1. Give brits the bren carrier for scouting and 55 sight range. May or may not be transport able.

OR

Make units for each faction like recon tommies, so recon is still possible without loosing so much firepower for it.

Transport Units: Again, so underused, because they go from point a to b and are pretty useless for a stand up fight. Taken out easy, provides mediocre firepower. Don't actually have any ideas for this. Decrease pop by 1 or 2 maybe?

[Mister Schmidt]

Depends, Brits & PE have much better transport options than US & Wehr.

It's a shame the Roo has never been balanced effectively, because it's such a cool unit.

I had redeisgned it during my time here years ago but it never took off, I had ideas for all transports to make them more viable, but no dice.
If US & Wehr had similar options (open-topped halftracks), and they weren't made of paper, I feel transport vehicles would see a lot more use.