Addressing the viability of medium armour

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[Zamochit]

no one wants a sherman or p4 because they dont hit hard enough. only 87.5 damage compared to 100, 110, 120 is weak. especially when its on the same rate of fire, heck just spam high damage, long range at, and then spam high damage, suppressing infantry and you're good

[tank130]

P4 and Shermans shouldn't be hard hitting anyway. They are a counter to infantry and Light vehicles.

If there is something stronger on the field, use dedicated AT or TD.

[8thRifleRegiment]

P4 and Shermans shouldn't be hard hitting anyway. They are a counter to infantry and Light vehicles.

If there is something stronger on the field, use dedicated AT or TD.

but why use medium tanks when TDs are half the price, and the m18 for example, with less muni sink can kill inf almost just as well as a sherman.

[tank130]

but why use medium tanks when TDs are half the price, and the m18 for example, with less muni sink can kill inf almost just as well as a sherman.

BINGO!!!!!!  we have a winner. That folks, is why we are discussing the AI abilities of TD's in another thread.

There is a design flaw where TD's are almost as powerful at AI as they are AT, therefore rendering the medium tank redundant and borderline useless.

Take away the AI ability of TD's and you have to find something to support you Infantry = voila!!! the medium tank comes back into play.

We do not need a bunch of price changes, stat changes, pool changes...blah, blah blah...... Just take away the AI ability and the problem is solved.

[hans]

but why use medium tanks when TDs are half the price, and the m18 for example, with less muni sink can kill inf almost just as well as a sherman.

ehm from my personal feeling as an allied player i would always take the normal sherman instead of the tankdestroyer for killing inf effectively.

the accurate long range killing of infantry is 80% better as for a hellcat. okay that means not, that hellcat can not kill anything. its true that u can get with a hellcat 20 kills. but, it always matters who u are facing (skilled or not skilled player). and against a skilled player its more effective to have a tank that takes out at least with one shot one guy. Sherman can do this, while u have to shoot 3 times with the hellcat and might still miss.

armour is also important. while u might crush with hellcat or just use the 50.cal or the main gun, the sherman with a better gun has much better armour to do its job.

hellcat is for me a bad option to take out inf very accurate

[hans]

BINGO!!!!!!  we have a winner. That folks, is why we are discussing the AI abilities of TD's in another thread.

well tank, maybe u try to discuss somehow as serious and neutral as u expect us to do, too. If u think a TD is better antiinf then a sherman, then i have to tell u that u have far too less experience with the allied forces. Tell me how often u play allies, tell me!

[tank130]

well tank, maybe u try to discuss somehow as serious and neutral as u expect us to do, too. If u think a TD is better antiinf then a sherman, then i have to tell u that u have far too less experience with the allied forces. Tell me how often u play allies, tell me!

It's all in how you use it.

I can squish an entire full heath infantry squad with an M10 in about 1.5 seconds. You can not kill an entire full health infantry squad that quickly with a sherman gun.
Contrary to popular belief, mastering crush is a simple as knowing how to click sideways, then front again.

My Armor company is 6 M10 for this reason........

I am  100% serious with what I am saying. The solution to medium tank usage is very simple. So simple it is crazy that we have pages of discussion on other complicated ways to fix it.

Remove AI abilities from TD and you have no other choice then to use medium tanks to support your infantry (within reason of course)

You prefer the Sherman because you have stated you are not good with crush - fair point, but that does not mean it is a solution to the problem.

[8thRifleRegiment]

 Just take away the AI ability and the problem is solved.

well...the biggest ai ability of TDs is crush, but we could also remove the ability of m18s and m10s of sniping inf, like they too often do. But crush is fine as is, the bigger issue is the amount of times an m18 will snipe infantry, this only seems soo much more effective because it has a 50cal as well

[NightRain]

Just nerf TD in price. Make their Price similar to Mediums and you can see why people would take Mediums in use.

Crush isn't the issue, the price of tank destroyers is. You can field more of them and they do both roles just fine. Hellcats snipe infantry and are faster than Pumas oh also has the best accuracy versus them too. Plus they get the extra los other tanks are missing. All in all increase price on TD to match mediums, problem solved.

Who uses Sherman in AT duty anyway? Its a infantry killer and performs better in its role than a P4.

[Ahnungsloser]

well...the biggest ai ability of TDs is crush, but we could also remove the ability of m18s and m10s of sniping inf, like they too often do. But crush is fine as is, the bigger issue is the amount of times an m18 will snipe infantry, this only seems soo much more effective because it has a 50cal as well

Sorry, but this is 100% not the truth.
The Main Accuracy Table of a Hellcat is 1/1/0.9 and the Main Accuracy Table of a Panther is 1/1/0.85 but the Hellcat has a x0.35 Modifier to
the most Infantry and the Panther a x0.6 Modifier (Panther is up to 70% better in Inf Sniping)
Sounds that you just have some bad dice rolls.

Just nerf TD in price. Make their Price similar to Mediums and you can see why people would take Mediums in use.

Crush isn't the issue, the price of tank destroyers is. You can field more of them and they do both roles just fine. Hellcats snipe infantry and are faster than Pumas oh also has the best accuracy versus them too. Plus they get the extra los other tanks are missing. All in all increase price on TD to match mediums, problem solved.

Who uses Sherman in AT duty anyway? Its a infantry killer and performs better in its role than a P4.

That's not a soloution, that's just forcing player to use something. I can remember a Thread where some guys cryied about the Freedom with Company Builds and the fact that they don't want to be restriced to use the Company Builds they want make. And now you come with the idea with a price increase to force the player to use Medium Armour. - Sounds excellent and well thought!

[8thRifleRegiment]

Sorry, but this is 100% not the truth.
The Main Accuracy Table of a Hellcat is 1/1/0.9 and the Main Accuracy Table of a Panther is 1/1/0.85 but the Hellcat has a x0.35 Modifier to
the most Infantry and the Panther a x0.6 Modifier (Panther is up to 70% better in Inf Sniping)
Sounds that you just have some bad dice rolls.

thank you for furthur proving my point, you pay a mountain more for a panther and it has the equal abilities of killing tanks as an m18, and an m18 doesnt have to worry about ap rounds. for the price of a panther, that amount of m18s could take on any tank in existance, the fact that the m18 can actually snipe inf semi reliably, is a retarded idea. If the panther was useless vs inf, nobody would take it, you posting %'s is just irrelevant to the conversation.

[Ahnungsloser]

thank you for furthur proving my point, you pay a mountain more for a panther and it has the equal abilities of killing tanks as an m18, and an m18 doesnt have to worry about ap rounds. for the price of a panther, that amount of m18s could take on any tank in existance, the fact that the m18 can actually snipe inf semi reliably, is a retarded idea. If the panther was useless vs inf, nobody would take it, you posting %'s is just irrelevant to the conversation.

Oh, yes Sir. I forget that the M18 Hellcat has a annoying armor. So sorry.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Oh, yes Sir. I forget that the M18 Hellcat has a annoying armor. So sorry.

Its cheap as fuck, it could have halftrack armor for its cost and it would still rape shit


pretty much with a panther it feels like your paying 300 extra fuel to bounce shots unless they ap round you then you take as many hits as the m18

[NightRain]

Sorry, but this is 100% not the truth.


That's not a soloution, that's just forcing player to use something. I can remember a Thread where some guys cryied about the Freedom with Company Builds and the fact that they don't want to be restriced to use the Company Builds they want make. And now you come with the idea with a price increase to force the player to use Medium Armour. - Sounds excellent and well thought!

If it isn't the solution what is? Nerfing TD? Buffing mediums? There isn't really any alternative. You can sacrifice 1x M10 to kill a P4 and come ontop with cost every time.

Lets see.

300 manpower 210 fuel Hellcat 10 pop (35 mun MG, 30 mun repair 15 mun hawkins mine)
300 manpower 200 fuel M10 10 pop (30 mun repair)

395 manpower 240 fuel Sherman 12 pop (50 mun mg, 50 mun repair, 30 fuel upgun, 20 smoke, 30 crabflail)
Upgun Sherman 395 manopower 270 fuel. 12 pop

400 manpower 250 fuel Panzer 4 12 pop (50 mg, 50 repair, 30 fuel skirts)
400 manpower 290 fuel Skirted P4. 12 pop.

600 manpower 450 fuel Panther 14 pop (30 MG, 60 repair, 40 fuel skirts)
600 manpower 490 fuel Skirted Panther.

At max fuel(1500 fuel) you get:
7x Hellcats
7x M10s

6x Non-upgun Shermans
5x Upgun Shermans

6x Non skirted P4s
5x Skirted P4s
3x Skirted/Non-skirted Panthers.

Just by looking this I can already guarantee that 7x Hellcats or M10s will provide you more than those 6 or 5 Shermans. Just by thinking all the resources:

6x Standard upgraded Shermans= 100x6 (Some people use smoke but I didn't count it in, if you buy smoke add 120 mun more to it) 600 munitions on those Shermans. With M10s? 30x6 = 180 mun.

Lets see a 7x Standardly upgraded M18s and M10s in total resource cost and compared it to mediums.

7x M18: 2100 manpower  360 munitions 1470 fuel
7x M10: 2100 manpower  180 munitions 1400 fuel

6x M4 Sherman: 2370 manpower 600 munitions 1440 fuel (if smoke included + 120 munitions)
5x Upgun M4 Sherman: 1970 manpower 600 munitions 1350 fuel (if smoke included + 100 munitions)

6x Panzer 4: 2400 manpower 600 munitions  1500 fuel
5x Skirted Panzer 4s: 2000 manpower 600 munitions 1450 fuel.

For Panthers

Skirt: 1800 manpower  270 munitions  1470 fuel
Non-Skirt: 1800 manpower 270 munitions 1350 fuel

Now look at these numbers and you will automatically see that TDs are just cheaper than the mediums and therefore requires a price nerf. I rest my case.

[hans]

cheaper yes, but they are so easy to kill and the only counter for german heavies with atguns. dont use sherman to kill tiger.

[NightRain]

cheaper yes, but they are so easy to kill and the only counter for german heavies with atguns. dont use sherman to kill tiger.

Lets throw a little bit more in the bundle shall we?

M18: 46 Sight range 45 Range
M10: 35 Sight range 45 Range

If used like snipers, nothing will harm these guys. Plus with superior speed compared to mediums you can zoom around from place a to b. You sacrifice armor for that superior speed and range.

[Hicks58]

pretty much with a panther it feels like your paying 300 extra fuel to bounce shots unless they ap round you then you take as many hits as the m18

400 HP vs 742 HP. Not far off double the health.

[Spartan_Marine88]

400 HP vs 742 HP. Not far off double the health.

Which Ap rounds will shred in a few hits that was my point

[Hicks58]

It'll take 4 rounds to do it assuming the Panther has no vet nor doctrine modifiers. On top of that, you can only get a maximum of 2 rounds from AP rounds, so you'd need two ATG's using AP rounds simultaneously to get the 4 rounds off at the Panther.

Hellcat drops in 3 ATG rounds regardless of vet or modifiers or abilities.

[Mysthalin]

cheaper yes, but they are so easy to kill and the only counter for german heavies with atguns. dont use sherman to kill tiger.

And, even though you don't use shermans to kill tigers, while being perfectly capable of doing that with M10s, with comparative anti-inf ability.. shermans cost more?

Something's wrong there - and I think it's rather clear what that "something" is.