Stug

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[hans]

it has 40 range. Wouldnt it make sense to give it 45 range in line with other tankdestroyers? With range increase we can also higher the costs a bit and the pool. Makes sense for me.

what do u think?

[ick312]

hi,

well yes it would be fair and should be standard (besides doc buffs), the counter agrument will be that the stug has a very good, armor for its price. but yes i still think that + 5 range would be fair

greetings ick

[Hicks58]

Try to hold in mind two factors:

1. It's 150/175 Fuel.

2. It's not a TD. How many TD's do you know of that can reliably chop up infantry? (Without crush)

[hans]

Try to hold in mind two factors:

1. It's 150/175 Fuel.

With range increase we can also higher the costs a bit and the pool.

thats why i wrote this tbh

2. It's not a TD. How many TD's do you know of that can reliably chop up infantry? (Without crush)

is the stug that reliable in killing inf? turret rotation is missing in ur description. its disadvantage for the stug.

Stug is from my point of view no medium tank and also no tankdestroyer with the current state. lets give it a nice role ?

[Hicks58]

The MG that it has is one of the best tank mounted MG's you can get your hands on. Turns it into a nasty piece of work vs infantry, suppressing in one burst.

StuG's are for people who want cheap and disposable. If you want a TD with staying power, get a Panther.

[hans]

The MG that it has is one of the best tank mounted MG's you can get your hands on. Turns it into a nasty piece of work vs infantry, suppressing in one burst.

StuG's are for people who want cheap and disposable. If you want a TD with staying power, get a Panther.

just because it has a nice mg that suppresses well doesnt mean that it should not perform as a TD regarding range. i dont take the stug for AI reasons, if the p4 does it more reliable.

Iam not talking about changing the stug completely, iam just sayin that it could need +5 range. Panther does better in killing tanks, no doubt.

[Tymathee]

this argument has been made before and the conclusion came to this pretty much.

It's not a tank destroyer in line with the US TD's.

Part of the reason ami TD's have 45 range is because of their low health and armor, where as stugs are more tough to penetrate than even the p4.

[Hicks58]

It can take down any target with an equal cost or less than it's own easily enough.

Even better, it can take down a 220 FU investment in the shape of a 75mm Sherman, and give a 260 FU investment in the shape of a 76mm Sherman a good run for it's money.

Honestly, the tank performs fine. I used to use it quite a lot and frankly loved it. Just gotta be a little careful in it's use and be mindful of the environment. If your opponent has equal range, open ground. If your opponent ranges you, find some shot blockers or a town.

Then again, it really is one of those tanks where you can justify bringing out a second, if just one isn't enough.

[Valexandes]

Very low pop cost for tank.
If the range increases the effectiveness is dramatically increased and the pop would be too low.
I think as is it is good

[RikiRude]

its fine!

[AmPM]

this argument has been made before and the conclusion came to this pretty much.

It's not a tank destroyer in line with the US TD's.

Part of the reason ami TD's have 45 range is because of their low health and armor, where as stugs are more tough to penetrate than even the p4.

This would be much more important if AT across the board didnt get so many buffs. The STUG's armor is useful vs a decreasing demographic of units and it's HP is almost as low as an M8's.

[Mysthalin]

it's HP is almost as low as an M8's.

In pure percentage terms that's about as accurate as saying that a Pershing's health is almost as low as a Churchil Mk 4's. The StuG's health is exactly that of an M10.


That being said - I do agree with Hans. The StuG has greater armour and a lower population and resource cost than an M10 - but that is where it's advantages end. It suffers from a lack of a turret, a significantly lower mobility and lower firepower (especially if accounting for penetration) to boot. These three things alone would make it seem to me that the range disadvantage is simply unnecessary.

There is of course the argument that the MG42 upgrade on the unit is amazing - but what does that do for the base unit? An M10 is able to crush much better than the StuG can without the need for an upgrade - and can do so with quite higher impunity given the lack of stickies it has to dodge. Furthermore, if the MG42 upgrade is indeed so star-spangled awesome, then perhaps it should be repriced accordingly to its function, or maybe integrated into the unit as a base with a higher resource cost associated with the StuG. We don't slap an extra 100 muni base cost to Stormtroopers just because they can get double shreks, and we're not going to remove KCH heroic armour because 4-man KCH are just flat out better than the 3-man version.

The StuG itself? 5 more range will allow it to function a little bit more to the function of it's much closer cousin - the Hetzer, which rolls around with a nice little 50 range and other benefits with regards to the StuG which most people probably already know. And even with these benefits the Hetzer is having trouble maintaining much field presence in the current metagame. Honestly, I don't believe adding 5 range to the StuG as a standartization, combined with a potential 10 FU price increase, will do much to skew the balance in the axis favour. You'll still need somebody to scout ahead for the StuG so it can actually utilize the range.

Myst's seal of approval for giving the StuG some range.


P.S. Although I will argue that Fuel and Munitions are the main factors to look at when deciding how important pricing is with regard to most units - for the StuG manpower becomes relevant as well. You're spending up to 3000 manpower to equip yourself with 10 stugs, while 3 panthers would not set you back a mere 1800. This Manpower to Fuel ratio becomes very important - especially given that StuGs are generally "intended" as a supplement to heavily infantry-oriented armies.

[Smokaz]

I like giving it +5 range and trading some manpower for fuel with it, take off 60 mp and add like 30 fuel.

Read myst post and I think it needs more fuel than that. A 45 range stug will free up a lot of pak / shrek munitions.

You'll still need somebody to scout ahead for the StuG so it can actually utilize the range.

Volks w/faust (as im sure you are ejaculating about using with 45 range stug alrdy)

[hans]

keep in mind, that we also have to adjust the pool then. Having 10 stugs with 45 range is too much if thats even possible.

[NightRain]

keep in mind, that we also have to adjust the pool then. Having 10 stugs with 45 range is too much if thats even possible.

Even if it did have 45 range, the only tanks who would worry about it are those with 40 range and even they would pounce off shells. Other tank destroyers would return fire. Basically it becomes a little mobile pak gun that has no turret but for compensation has MG and good frontal armor with the lack of proper HP. And if anyone starts spamming StuGs they'll notice plenty of troubles in terms of other units.

[hans]

Even if it did have 45 range, the only tanks who would worry about it are those with 40 range and even they would pounce off shells. Other tank destroyers would return fire. Basically it becomes a little mobile pak gun that has no turret but for compensation has MG and good frontal armor with the lack of proper HP. And if anyone starts spamming StuGs they'll notice plenty of troubles in terms of other units.

okay true.

[TheVolskinator]

StuGs are close to rubbish without doctrine buffs as is; bear this in mind before going against a range increase. The StuG is is intended as a 'tank destroyer', though infantry support is important for it as well. Generally speaking, it's just about the worst Axis armor there is; at least a pack of 3 50mm Pumas will annoy someone. Multiple stugs warrent 1-2 ATGs and that's that. I have to say, buff them.

[Smokaz]

10 stugs without skirts?

[hans]

10 stugs without skirts?

i have to admit i dont know it. Maybe iam wrong.

[EliteGren]

I will lol if StuGs start kiting shermans