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Stug
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Topic: Stug (Read 9377 times)
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hans
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3497
Stug
«
on:
January 22, 2013, 04:29:59 pm »
it has 40 range. Wouldnt it make sense to give it 45 range in line with other tankdestroyers? With range increase we can also higher the costs a bit and the pool. Makes sense for me.
what do u think?
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Quote from: brn4meplz on May 06, 2013, 01:52:31 pm
Also, bad analogy ground, My vegetables never pissed on my ego when I decided they defeated me and gave up on dessert.
ick312
EIR Veteran
Posts: 534
Re: Stug
«
Reply #1 on:
January 22, 2013, 04:56:26 pm »
hi,
well yes it would be fair and should be standard (besides doc buffs), the counter agrument will be that the stug has a very good, armor for its price. but yes i still think that + 5 range would be fair
greetings ick
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Quote from: tank130 on April 18, 2013, 10:06:07 pm
I don't know Wind, that whole 21 virgins thing kinda peaked my interest a little .......
Quote from: EliteGren on December 08, 2013, 06:10:28 pm
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Hicks58
Development
Posts: 5343
Re: Stug
«
Reply #2 on:
January 22, 2013, 05:43:47 pm »
Try to hold in mind two factors:
1. It's 150/175 Fuel.
2. It's not a TD. How many TD's do you know of that can reliably chop up infantry? (Without crush)
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Quote from: brn4meplz on November 05, 2012, 10:45:05 am
I mean I know Obama was the first one in EiR to get a card. and tbfh the Race card is pretty OP. but Romney has the K.K.K., those guys seem to camo anywhere. So OP units from both sides.
Quote from: Mysthalin on March 27, 2014, 04:57:09 pm
At the end of the day, however, stormtroopers finally got the anal invasion with a cactus they have richly deserved for years.
hans
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3497
Re: Stug
«
Reply #3 on:
January 22, 2013, 05:48:44 pm »
Quote from: Hicks58 on January 22, 2013, 05:43:47 pm
Try to hold in mind two factors:
1. It's 150/175 Fuel.
Quote from: hans on January 22, 2013, 04:29:59 pm
With range increase we can also higher the costs a bit and the pool.
thats why i wrote this tbh
Quote from: Hicks58 on January 22, 2013, 05:43:47 pm
2. It's not a TD. How many TD's do you know of that can reliably chop up infantry? (Without crush)
is the stug that reliable in killing inf? turret rotation is missing in ur description. its disadvantage for the stug.
Stug is from my point of view no medium tank and also no tankdestroyer with the current state. lets give it a nice role ?
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Hicks58
Development
Posts: 5343
Re: Stug
«
Reply #4 on:
January 22, 2013, 05:51:37 pm »
The MG that it has is one of the best tank mounted MG's you can get your hands on. Turns it into a nasty piece of work vs infantry, suppressing in one burst.
StuG's are for people who want cheap and disposable. If you want a TD with staying power, get a Panther.
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hans
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3497
Re: Stug
«
Reply #5 on:
January 22, 2013, 05:56:00 pm »
Quote from: Hicks58 on January 22, 2013, 05:51:37 pm
The MG that it has is one of the best tank mounted MG's you can get your hands on. Turns it into a nasty piece of work vs infantry, suppressing in one burst.
StuG's are for people who want cheap and disposable. If you want a TD with staying power, get a Panther.
just because it has a nice mg that suppresses well doesnt mean that it should not perform as a TD regarding range. i dont take the stug for AI reasons, if the p4 does it more reliable.
Iam not talking about changing the stug completely, iam just sayin that it could need +5 range. Panther does better in killing tanks, no doubt.
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Tymathee
Donator
Posts: 9741
Re: Stug
«
Reply #6 on:
January 22, 2013, 05:58:41 pm »
this argument has been made before and the conclusion came to this pretty much.
It's not a tank destroyer in line with the US TD's.
Part of the reason ami TD's have 45 range is because of their low health and armor, where as stugs are more tough to penetrate than even the p4.
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Quote from: nikomas on October 04, 2012, 09:26:33 pm
"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"
Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.
Hicks58
Development
Posts: 5343
Re: Stug
«
Reply #7 on:
January 22, 2013, 07:32:32 pm »
It can take down any target with an equal cost or less than it's own easily enough.
Even better, it can take down a 220 FU investment in the shape of a 75mm Sherman, and give a 260 FU investment in the shape of a 76mm Sherman a good run for it's money.
Honestly, the tank performs fine. I used to use it quite a lot and frankly loved it. Just gotta be a little careful in it's use and be mindful of the environment. If your opponent has equal range, open ground. If your opponent ranges you, find some shot blockers or a town.
Then again, it really is one of those tanks where you can justify bringing out a second, if just one isn't enough.
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Valexandes
Donator
Posts: 280
Re: Stug
«
Reply #8 on:
January 22, 2013, 09:30:51 pm »
Very low pop cost for tank.
If the range increases the effectiveness is dramatically increased and the pop would be too low.
I think as is it is good
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Quote from: Tymathee on January 30, 2012, 04:57:43 pm
the nashorn is like a kid with a giant penis, it has no idea how to use it or where to point it most of the time but it could still fuck you
Quote from: EIRRMod on July 23, 2012, 09:40:18 pm
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RikiRude
Donator
Posts: 4376
Re: Stug
«
Reply #9 on:
January 22, 2013, 09:36:47 pm »
its fine!
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Quote from: Killer344
Killer344: "Repent: sory no joke i just had savage diorea"
Quote from: Malgoroth on October 10, 2011, 05:03:49 pm
... or a fat ass cock sucking churchill being stupid
AmPM
Community Mapper
Posts: 7978
Re: Stug
«
Reply #10 on:
January 22, 2013, 11:54:26 pm »
Quote from: Tymathee on January 22, 2013, 05:58:41 pm
this argument has been made before and the conclusion came to this pretty much.
It's not a tank destroyer in line with the US TD's.
Part of the reason ami TD's have 45 range is because of their low health and armor, where as stugs are more tough to penetrate than even the p4.
This would be much more important if AT across the board didnt get so many buffs. The STUG's armor is useful vs a decreasing demographic of units and it's HP is almost as low as an M8's.
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Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: Stug
«
Reply #11 on:
January 23, 2013, 02:03:48 am »
Quote from: AmPM on January 22, 2013, 11:54:26 pm
it's HP is almost as low as an M8's.
In pure percentage terms that's about as accurate as saying that a Pershing's health is almost as low as a Churchil Mk 4's. The StuG's health is exactly that of an M10.
That being said - I do agree with Hans. The StuG has greater armour and a lower population and resource cost than an M10 - but that is where it's advantages end. It suffers from a lack of a turret, a significantly lower mobility and lower firepower (especially if accounting for penetration) to boot. These three things alone would make it seem to me that the range disadvantage is simply unnecessary.
There is of course the argument that the MG42 upgrade on the unit is amazing - but what does that do for the base unit? An M10 is able to crush much better than the StuG can without the need for an upgrade - and can do so with quite higher impunity given the lack of stickies it has to dodge. Furthermore, if the MG42 upgrade is indeed so star-spangled awesome, then perhaps it should be repriced accordingly to its function, or maybe integrated into the unit as a base with a higher resource cost associated with the StuG. We don't slap an extra 100 muni base cost to Stormtroopers just because they can get double shreks, and we're not going to remove KCH heroic armour because 4-man KCH are just flat out better than the 3-man version.
The StuG itself? 5 more range will allow it to function a little bit more to the function of it's much closer cousin - the Hetzer, which rolls around with a nice little 50 range and other benefits with regards to the StuG which most people probably already know. And even with these benefits the Hetzer is having trouble maintaining much field presence in the current metagame. Honestly, I don't believe adding 5 range to the StuG as a standartization, combined with a potential 10 FU price increase, will do much to skew the balance in the axis favour. You'll still need somebody to scout ahead for the StuG so it can actually utilize the range.
Myst's seal of approval for giving the StuG some range.
P.S. Although I will argue that Fuel and Munitions are the main factors to look at when deciding how important pricing is with regard to most units - for the StuG manpower becomes relevant as well. You're spending up to 3000 manpower to equip yourself with 10 stugs, while 3 panthers would not set you back a mere 1800. This Manpower to Fuel ratio becomes very important - especially given that StuGs are generally "intended" as a supplement to heavily infantry-oriented armies.
Logged
Smokaz
Honoured Member
Posts: 11418
Re: Stug
«
Reply #12 on:
January 23, 2013, 03:32:32 am »
I like giving it +5 range and trading some manpower for fuel with it, take off 60 mp and add like 30 fuel.
Read myst post and I think it needs more fuel than that. A 45 range stug will free up a lot of pak / shrek munitions.
Quote
You'll still need somebody to scout ahead for the StuG so it can actually utilize the range.
Volks w/faust (as im sure you are ejaculating about using with 45 range stug alrdy)
«
Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 07:23:21 am by Smokaz
»
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SlippedHerTheBigOne: big penis puma
SlippedHerTheBigOne: and i have no repairkits
SlippedHerTheBigOne: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
hans
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3497
Re: Stug
«
Reply #13 on:
January 23, 2013, 08:47:42 am »
keep in mind, that we also have to adjust the pool then. Having 10 stugs with 45 range is too much if thats even possible.
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NightRain
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3908
Re: Stug
«
Reply #14 on:
January 23, 2013, 09:16:09 am »
Quote from: hans on January 23, 2013, 08:47:42 am
keep in mind, that we also have to adjust the pool then. Having 10 stugs with 45 range is too much if thats even possible.
Even if it did have 45 range, the only tanks who would worry about it are those with 40 range and even they would pounce off shells. Other tank destroyers would return fire. Basically it becomes a little mobile pak gun that has no turret but for compensation has MG and good frontal armor with the lack of proper HP. And if anyone starts spamming StuGs they'll notice plenty of troubles in terms of other units.
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Quote from: Unkn0wn on June 05, 2011, 04:01:40 am
Because a forum post should be like a woman's skirt. Long enough to cover the subject material, but short enough to keep things interesting.
hans
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3497
Re: Stug
«
Reply #15 on:
January 23, 2013, 09:18:34 am »
Quote from: NightRain on January 23, 2013, 09:16:09 am
Even if it did have 45 range, the only tanks who would worry about it are those with 40 range and even they would pounce off shells. Other tank destroyers would return fire. Basically it becomes a little mobile pak gun that has no turret but for compensation has MG and good frontal armor with the lack of proper HP. And if anyone starts spamming StuGs they'll notice plenty of troubles in terms of other units.
okay true.
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TheVolskinator
Administrator / Lead Developer
Posts: 3012
Re: Stug
«
Reply #16 on:
January 23, 2013, 09:19:58 am »
StuGs are close to rubbish without doctrine buffs as is; bear this in mind before going against a range increase. The StuG is is intended as a 'tank destroyer', though infantry support is important for it as well. Generally speaking, it's just about the worst Axis armor there is; at least a pack of 3 50mm Pumas will annoy someone. Multiple stugs warrent 1-2 ATGs and that's that. I have to say, buff them.
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Quote from: tank130
I want to ensure we have a 100% decision on the process before we do the wipe.
If not, then I wipe, then someone gets something they shouldn't, then it gets abused, then the shit hits the fan and then I ban shab.
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Smokaz
Honoured Member
Posts: 11418
Re: Stug
«
Reply #17 on:
January 23, 2013, 11:10:51 am »
10 stugs without skirts?
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hans
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3497
Re: Stug
«
Reply #18 on:
January 23, 2013, 11:12:40 am »
Quote from: Smokaz on January 23, 2013, 11:10:51 am
10 stugs without skirts?
i have to admit i dont know it. Maybe iam wrong.
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EliteGren
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6106
Re: Stug
«
Reply #19 on:
January 23, 2013, 11:23:52 am »
I will lol if StuGs start kiting shermans
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Quote from: deadbolt on December 30, 2010, 09:14:16 am
i prefer to no u
Quote from: deadbolt on July 30, 2012, 08:08:48 am
Don't knock it til uve tried it bitchface, this isn't anything like salads version. Besides u said a semois conversion would never work, now look that's the most played map, ohgodwhy.jpg r u map lead
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